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Post by Incognito on Apr 19, 2023 8:31:44 GMT
Interesting how? You have actually worked in workforce analysis? If that is the case, you have even less of an excuse. A junior doctor who was newly qualified in 2010 is quite likely to be a registrar today. In NHS-speak, the 13-year journey from Foundation Year 1 to the Senior Trainee grade means a salary rising from £29,384 to £58, 398. Then there's pensions. Try to keep to the subject matter about these disgraceful liars that the British Medical Association has encouraged on to the picket line. Only 27 years, since you mention it. In the private sector. Where people had to do a days work. Or they were out on their ear. At least that puts them on a par with the train drivers.
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Post by Barney still in B-Block on Apr 19, 2023 8:53:37 GMT
The subject matter, since you mention it, wasn’t actually the “BMA encouraged picket-line liars”. It’s also moved on from the Grand National, significantly, but let’s assume for now that you’re correct in your earlier assertion (another survey I didn’t hear about, but hey, you’ve got plenty of previous that front) that “very few Doctors are emigrating to work in Australia and Canada”. If they’re not, they’re certainly going somewhere, otherwise just how would you explain the 136,000 (largely clinical) and ever rising number of vacancies in the NHS? (Something a lot closer to the subject matter, as it happens) There’s a massive, existential recruitment and retention problem within the NHS, unless you, with your expertise in the field, know otherwise It’s almost as though you have a vendetta against Doctors and Nurses, one that’s blinding you to a clear and obvious Tory sponsored assault on them and their professions. The supply of people who want to be doctors far exceeds the demand for doctors. Only about 16 per cent of applicants to medical school get places. For every junior doctor, there are four people who wanted their job. The persistent refusal to make greater use of this pool of would-be medical labour is one of the more baffling failures of British public policy in recent years.My own experience of the NHS has been reasonable, as it happens. Therefore my comments are made with the usual dispassionate objectivity. Try to equip yourself with better information if you want engage with me in a debate in future efforts. So you acknowledge that there is a problem. Or more accurately, 136,000 of them, and rising. Fine. Agreed. Said problem is a baffling failure of British public policy in recent years. Again agreed, although would add the number 13. (Check out waiting list lengths when the tories got in, and compare them to today.) I also agree that there appear to be a lot more people wanting to be doctors before they actually become doctors, so why is it then, that these people, once they have become doctors are so overwhelmingly unhappy with their lot that they are out on strike? Or leaving the country? They say it is down to increasingly dangerous working conditions, principally understaffing, caused largely due to appalling, and getting ever worse staff retention rates. Having worked in or with the NHS for forty years, I agree with them - if only I had another 27 in the private sector, I'd be all over it. The problems are entirely because this 'government' has systematically, wilfully, and cynically underfunded the NHS in general, medics and nurses in particular, because they felt that they could could 'get away with it'. I would very much accept an argument that the BMA and various Nursing Trade Unions shouldn't have let things get this far, and been more militant a good bit sooner, but we are where we are, so just how would you, today, address these 136,000 problems? Given your dispassionate objectivity, and being equipped with better information, that shouldn't pose too great a problem.
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Post by sevenoaksbull on Apr 19, 2023 17:53:31 GMT
The supply of people who want to be doctors far exceeds the demand for doctors. Only about 16 per cent of applicants to medical school get places. For every junior doctor, there are four people who wanted their job. The persistent refusal to make greater use of this pool of would-be medical labour is one of the more baffling failures of British public policy in recent years.My own experience of the NHS has been reasonable, as it happens. Therefore my comments are made with the usual dispassionate objectivity. Try to equip yourself with better information if you want engage with me in a debate in future efforts. So you acknowledge that there is a problem. Or more accurately, 136,000 of them, and rising. Fine. Agreed. Said problem is a baffling failure of British public policy in recent years. Again agreed, although would add the number 13. (Check out waiting list lengths when the tories got in, and compare them to today.) I also agree that there appear to be a lot more people wanting to be doctors before they actually become doctors, so why is it then, that these people, once they have become doctors are so overwhelmingly unhappy with their lot that they are out on strike? Or leaving the country? They say it is down to increasingly dangerous working conditions, principally understaffing, caused largely due to appalling, and getting ever worse staff retention rates. Having worked in or with the NHS for forty years, I agree with them - if only I had another 27 in the private sector, I'd be all over it. The problems are entirely because this 'government' has systematically, wilfully, and cynically underfunded the NHS in general, medics and nurses in particular, because they felt that they could could 'get away with it'. I would very much accept an argument that the BMA and various Nursing Trade Unions shouldn't have let things get this far, and been more militant a good bit sooner, but we are where we are, so just how would you, today, address these 136,000 problems? Given your dispassionate objectivity, and being equipped with better information, that shouldn't pose too great a problem. 5 of my extended family are doctors. According to one of them, who is in a position to know, for years all Governments have restricted the number of doctors entering medical schools on cost grounds. They also failed miserably to get the gender balance right, which means that those medics who understandably wish to work part time for family reasons do not have adequate cover because there simply isn’t the capacity to provide the level of cover needed, because there aren’t enough qualified people. That is one of the reasons so many want to work overseas. My cousin and her husband, one an expert in dementia care, the other a GP, are considering a move to Canada. So, the only reason 16% of applicants get into med school is down to deliberate policy and the reason so many practising medics are hacked off is down to poor resource management, which comes back to budgets. Much of the problems in general practice relate to the way Labour renegotiated the GP contract and the failure of subsequent Coalition and Conservative Governments to deal with that. All of which relates to money. Let’s also not forget that Labour hosed loads of money on PFI hospitals which takes money out of patient care. Again subsequent governments have done nothing about that either. The whole system is a mess but neither party dares do anything radical to sort it out.Meanwhile the system continues to fail.
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Post by Hawkeye on Apr 19, 2023 19:26:00 GMT
So you acknowledge that there is a problem. Or more accurately, 136,000 of them, and rising. Fine. Agreed. Said problem is a baffling failure of British public policy in recent years. Again agreed, although would add the number 13. (Check out waiting list lengths when the tories got in, and compare them to today.) I also agree that there appear to be a lot more people wanting to be doctors before they actually become doctors, so why is it then, that these people, once they have become doctors are so overwhelmingly unhappy with their lot that they are out on strike? Or leaving the country? They say it is down to increasingly dangerous working conditions, principally understaffing, caused largely due to appalling, and getting ever worse staff retention rates. Having worked in or with the NHS for forty years, I agree with them - if only I had another 27 in the private sector, I'd be all over it. The problems are entirely because this 'government' has systematically, wilfully, and cynically underfunded the NHS in general, medics and nurses in particular, because they felt that they could could 'get away with it'. I would very much accept an argument that the BMA and various Nursing Trade Unions shouldn't have let things get this far, and been more militant a good bit sooner, but we are where we are, so just how would you, today, address these 136,000 problems? Given your dispassionate objectivity, and being equipped with better information, that shouldn't pose too great a problem. 5 of my extended family are doctors. According to one of them, who is in a position to know, for years all Governments have restricted the number of doctors entering medical schools on cost grounds. They also failed miserably to get the gender balance right, which means that those medics who understandably wish to work part time for family reasons do not have adequate cover because there simply isn’t the capacity to provide the level of cover needed, because there aren’t enough qualified people. That is one of the reasons so many want to work overseas. My cousin and her husband, one an expert in dementia care, the other a GP, are considering a move to Canada. So, the only reason 16% of applicants get into med school is down to deliberate policy and the reason so many practising medics are hacked off is down to poor resource management, which comes back to budgets. Much of the problems in general practice relate to the way Labour renegotiated the GP contract and the failure of subsequent Coalition and Conservative Governments to deal with that. All of which relates to money. Let’s also not forget that Labour hosed loads of money on PFI hospitals which takes money out of patient care. Again subsequent governments have done nothing about that either. The whole system is a mess but neither party dares do anything radical to sort it out.Meanwhile the system continues to fail. Ah, PFI. The Private Finance Initiative. Gordon Brown's little ruse when he was Chancellor of he Exchequer. Kept the costs 'off the books' as the private sector was tasked with the developments rather than the government of the day. Wye Valley Trust's contract to build the 'new' (and seriously under bed capacity requirements) hospital with the appointed consortium runs for 30 years on extortionate terms. Neither Tory nor Labour administrations have shown that they understand what are the needs of the NHS.
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Post by GRL on Apr 19, 2023 19:43:36 GMT
5 of my extended family are doctors. According to one of them, who is in a position to know, for years all Governments have restricted the number of doctors entering medical schools on cost grounds. They also failed miserably to get the gender balance right, which means that those medics who understandably wish to work part time for family reasons do not have adequate cover because there simply isn’t the capacity to provide the level of cover needed, because there aren’t enough qualified people. That is one of the reasons so many want to work overseas. My cousin and her husband, one an expert in dementia care, the other a GP, are considering a move to Canada. So, the only reason 16% of applicants get into med school is down to deliberate policy and the reason so many practising medics are hacked off is down to poor resource management, which comes back to budgets. Much of the problems in general practice relate to the way Labour renegotiated the GP contract and the failure of subsequent Coalition and Conservative Governments to deal with that. All of which relates to money. Let’s also not forget that Labour hosed loads of money on PFI hospitals which takes money out of patient care. Again subsequent governments have done nothing about that either. The whole system is a mess but neither party dares do anything radical to sort it out.Meanwhile the system continues to fail. Ah, PFI. The Private Finance Initiative. Gordon Brown's little ruse when he was Chancellor of he Exchequer. Kept the costs 'off the books' as the private sector was tasked with the developments rather than the government of the day. Wye Valley Trust's contract to build the 'new' (and seriously under bed capacity requirements) hospital with the appointed consortium runs for 30 years on extortionate terms. Neither Tory nor Labour administrations have shown that they understand what are the needs of the NHS.Yes, but rather more critically, nor has the NHS. It has built up this gargantuan empire of personnel who do nothing (repeat nothing) to make you better. And, by the way, there's nothing wrong in the first place with lots of their customers. The Sick Man of Europe. A self-inflicted malaise. Nothing to do with this government or that government. And, as long as there are people in this giant edifice who won't admit the bleedin' obvious, it won't get any fecking better, will it???
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 19:47:45 GMT
Ah, PFI. The Private Finance Initiative. Gordon Brown's little ruse when he was Chancellor of he Exchequer. Kept the costs 'off the books' as the private sector was tasked with the developments rather than the government of the day. Wye Valley Trust's contract to build the 'new' (and seriously under bed capacity requirements) hospital with the appointed consortium runs for 30 years on extortionate terms. Neither Tory nor Labour administrations have shown that they understand what are the needs of the NHS.Yes, but rather more critically, nor has the NHS. It has built up this empire of personnel who do nothing (repeat nothing) to make you better. The Sick Man of Europe. A malaise brought upon itself. And, as long as there people who won't recognise that, it won't get any fecking better, will it??? So if you have seen what is wrong, what do you propose to fix it?
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Post by GRL on Apr 19, 2023 19:54:57 GMT
Britain needs more medical professionals at lower cost. That means making it quicker and easier to train doctors: do they all need to spend 7 years of training? In 2013, the GMC's Greenaway review suggested registering doctors to practise after five years of training. That was blocked by resistance from the profession and a lack of political will to overcome it. Does all the work done by a doctor need to be done by a doctor?
No.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2023 20:03:09 GMT
Britain needs more medical professionals at lower cost. That means making it quicker and easier to train doctors: do they all need to spend 7 years of training? In 2013, the GMC's Greenaway review suggested registering doctors to practise after five years of training. That was blocked by resistance from the profession and a lack of political will to overcome it. Does all the work done by a doctor need to be done by a doctor? No. I went to see a doctor a few months back feeling proper groggy - one of the post COVID ailments that have been free to roam, anyway I got seen by a practice nurse so are they not already doing that? I don't think dumbing down doctors is the way is it?
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Post by Incognito on Apr 20, 2023 8:24:40 GMT
5 of my extended family are doctors. According to one of them, who is in a position to know, for years all Governments have restricted the number of doctors entering medical schools on cost grounds. They also failed miserably to get the gender balance right, which means that those medics who understandably wish to work part time for family reasons do not have adequate cover because there simply isn’t the capacity to provide the level of cover needed, because there aren’t enough qualified people. That is one of the reasons so many want to work overseas. My cousin and her husband, one an expert in dementia care, the other a GP, are considering a move to Canada. So, the only reason 16% of applicants get into med school is down to deliberate policy and the reason so many practising medics are hacked off is down to poor resource management, which comes back to budgets. Much of the problems in general practice relate to the way Labour renegotiated the GP contract and the failure of subsequent Coalition and Conservative Governments to deal with that. All of which relates to money. Let’s also not forget that Labour hosed loads of money on PFI hospitals which takes money out of patient care. Again subsequent governments have done nothing about that either. The whole system is a mess but neither party dares do anything radical to sort it out.Meanwhile the system continues to fail. Ah, PFI. The Private Finance Initiative. Gordon Brown's little ruse when he was Chancellor of he Exchequer. Kept the costs 'off the books' as the private sector was tasked with the developments rather than the government of the day. Wye Valley Trust's contract to build the 'new' (and seriously under bed capacity requirements) hospital with the appointed consortium runs for 30 years on extortionate terms. Neither Tory nor Labour administrations have shown that they understand what are the needs of the NHS. So, how many years are remaining and what happens at the end of the period?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2023 9:54:59 GMT
Ah, PFI. The Private Finance Initiative. Gordon Brown's little ruse when he was Chancellor of he Exchequer. Kept the costs 'off the books' as the private sector was tasked with the developments rather than the government of the day. Wye Valley Trust's contract to build the 'new' (and seriously under bed capacity requirements) hospital with the appointed consortium runs for 30 years on extortionate terms. Neither Tory nor Labour administrations have shown that they understand what are the needs of the NHS. So, how many years are remaining and what happens at the end of the period? One of the few benefits of this place is it won't really affect any of us 😃.
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Post by Peroni on Apr 20, 2023 10:06:45 GMT
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Post by Peroni on Apr 20, 2023 10:06:59 GMT
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Post by Peroni on Apr 20, 2023 10:08:18 GMT
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Post by Hawkeye on Apr 20, 2023 10:44:42 GMT
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Post by GRL on Apr 20, 2023 10:49:38 GMT
And now that we have to call the Brecon Beacons "Bannau Brycheiniog" perhaps we can give two fingers to these bloody Druids when they want to come and occupy our beds in Hereford hospital?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2023 11:00:23 GMT
Say what you want about the NHS, but Hereford hospital has a cracking H painted in the car park.
I understand that it was meant to be on the roof but someone cocked up the calcs when they designed the steelwork so they had to abandon the idea.
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Post by Hawkeye on Apr 20, 2023 11:05:44 GMT
And now that we have to call the Brecon Beacons "Bannau Brycheiniog" perhaps we can give two fingers to these bloody Druids when they want to come and occupy our beds in Hereford hospital? 'These bloody Druids' that use both the outpatient and inpatient facilities at Hereford Hospital actually contribute to the costs of providing healthcare here in Hereford. I believe there is a contractual arrangement between the Welsh NHS service and Wye Valley NHS Trust. This ensures that the cost of bringing in patients from places such as Brecon, Llandrindod Wells and elsewhere in Mid-Wales are met in full by the Welsh NHS, which helps to contribute towards the budget we have here. That said, I have no idea why the Health Services in Scotland and Wales have different structures to the NHS in England. Surely a 'National Health Service' should be just that, a service for the nation that is The United Kingdom.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2023 11:12:58 GMT
And now that we have to call the Brecon Beacons "Bannau Brycheiniog" perhaps we can give two fingers to these bloody Druids when they want to come and occupy our beds in Hereford hospital? 'These bloody Druids' that use both the outpatient and inpatient facilities at Hereford Hospital actually contribute to the costs of providing healthcare here in Hereford. I believe there is a contractual arrangement between the Welsh NHS service and Wye Valley NHS Trust. This ensures that the cost of bringing in patients from places such as Brecon, Llandrindod Wells and elsewhere in Mid-Wales are met in full by the Welsh NHS, which helps to contribute towards the budget we have here. That said, I have no idea why the Health Services in Scotland and Wales have different structures to the NHS in England. Surely a 'National Health Service' should be just that, a service for the nation that is The United Kingdom. Doesn't the Welsh NHS giving out free prescriptions or whatever it is they do cause havoc? I am sure someone told me that back when waiting times were more sensible in England (say a decade ago), in Wales they were a bit dodgy. Because whilst the Welsh were free to do that under devolution or whatever it is called, they weren't given anymore dough, so it had to impact something. I think the Scots had similar headline grabbing freebies? Tuition fees??
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Post by Hawkeye on Apr 20, 2023 11:15:14 GMT
Say what you want about the NHS, but Hereford hospital has a cracking H painted in the car park. I understand that it was meant to be on the roof but someone cocked up the calcs when they designed the steelwork so they had to abandon the idea. The whole project was done 'on the cheap'. Not only was the helipad supposed to be on the roof but isn't because of what you said, some of the corridors were originally too narrow and had to be widened. There is no real air-conditioning in the ward areas and some of the windows apparently opened too far and had to have restraints retro-fitted to ensure security and/or to prevent patients falling out of those above the ground floor. And, of course, it's patently obvious that there never were enough beds to accommodate the needs of the growing population in Hereford.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2023 11:17:37 GMT
Say what you want about the NHS, but Hereford hospital has a cracking H painted in the car park. I understand that it was meant to be on the roof but someone cocked up the calcs when they designed the steelwork so they had to abandon the idea. The whole project was done 'on the cheap'. Not only was the helipad supposed to be on the roof but isn't because of what you said, some of the corridors were originally too narrow and had to be widened. There is no real air-conditioning in the ward areas and some of the windows apparently opened too far and had to have restraints retro-fitted to ensure security and/or to prevent patients falling out of those above the ground floor. And, of course, it's patently obvious that there never were enough beds to accommodate the needs of the growing population in Hereford. Other than that it is spot on? I wouldn't want to read your Trip Advisor entries 😃.
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