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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 11:47:34 GMT
Post by GRL on Jan 9, 2024 11:47:34 GMT
I think the whole purpose of strikes is that they are designed to cause inconvenience to the customer/user and therefore focus the employers mind. Otherwise what's the point of them? Also in ww land where most of the medical staff are idly doing laps of hospitals to kill a bit of time, the chaos caused when the said strikers walk out surely demonstrates that they must have at least some worth. must be s I think the inconvenience to the user is why striking is always a last resort (it must be shit for the doctors knowing the problems it causes for their patients). The problem with this government (and this is 100% their problem as the lag in pay rises has fully been on their watch) is that they have been reluctant to negotiate with any of the recent organisations that have striked. Once again it precisely isn't. There is no longer any kind of bond between doctor and patient because you never see the same doctor twice. They never know their patients. It was Gordon Brown who precipitated this nonsense in mid-2000s.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 12:09:05 GMT
I think the whole purpose of strikes is that they are designed to cause inconvenience to the customer/user and therefore focus the employers mind. Otherwise what's the point of them? Also in ww land where most of the medical staff are idly doing laps of hospitals to kill a bit of time, the chaos caused when the said strikers walk out surely demonstrates that they must have at least some worth. must be s I think the inconvenience to the user is why striking is always a last resort (it must be shit for the doctors knowing the problems it causes for their patients). The problem with this government (and this is 100% their problem as the lag in pay rises has fully been on their watch) is that they have been reluctant to negotiate with any of the recent organisations that have striked. Once again it precisely isn't. There is no longer any kind of bond between doctor and patient because you never see the same doctor twice. They never know their patients. It was Gordon Brown who precipitated this nonsense in mid-2000s. The reason he did that is so people could see a doctor sooner. I don't suppose his plan was to underfund the health service for over a decade so people have to beg for weeks to see a previously unknown doctor. To strip things back to the fundamentals, the only real reason that we live in this way (going to work for most of the day every day, paying a quarter of those earnings to people in charge and spending the rest on sustenance and a roof) is that we can rely on people to look after us when we're ill and help us when we're in trouble. Chronic underfunding of health and the police in this country has lead to us not being able to rely on these services. I had a health problem before Christmas and had to practically beg to be seen days after the problem started. Last year I reported a bloke punching a woman in the face, the police said they were too busy and phoned me back 5 days later. I don't see why I should spend all my time working just so I can pay for politicians to chuck my money under their beds and claim that the broken systems aren't their fault. Of course, if I decided to remove myself from the system I would be declared a criminal for one reason or another. Anyway, let's get rid of this disgusting, self-serving Party and get back to funding the basic services for life which are quite frankly the minimum we should be expecting of a 21st century society.
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Deleted
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 12:17:56 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 12:17:56 GMT
I think the whole purpose of strikes is that they are designed to cause inconvenience to the customer/user and therefore focus the employers mind. Otherwise what's the point of them? Also in ww land where most of the medical staff are idly doing laps of hospitals to kill a bit of time, the chaos caused when the said strikers walk out surely demonstrates that they must have at least some worth. must be s I think the inconvenience to the user is why striking is always a last resort (it must be shit for the doctors knowing the problems it causes for their patients). The problem with this government (and this is 100% their problem as the lag in pay rises has fully been on their watch) is that they have been reluctant to negotiate with any of the recent organisations that have striked. Once again it precisely isn't. There is no longer any kind of bond between doctor and patient because you never see the same doctor twice. They never know their patients. It was Gordon Brown who precipitated this nonsense in mid-2000s. So you are saying doctors don't give a shit? P.S. Your "precisely" usually needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 13:49:44 GMT
via mobile
Post by Hawkeye on Jan 9, 2024 13:49:44 GMT
I think the whole purpose of strikes is that they are designed to cause inconvenience to the customer/user and therefore focus the employers mind. Otherwise what's the point of them? Also in ww land where most of the medical staff are idly doing laps of hospitals to kill a bit of time, the chaos caused when the said strikers walk out surely demonstrates that they must have at least some worth. I think the inconvenience to the user is why striking is always a last resort (must be shit for the doctors knowing the problems it causes for their patients). The problem with this government (and this is 100% their problem as the lag in pay rises has fully been on their watch) is that they have been reluctant to negotiate with any of the recent organisations that have striked. But is it 100% the government's fault? It's perfectly clear that the lag in pay rises for junior doctors has been 'on their watch'. But has the BMA not been guilty of failing to negotiate effectively on behalf of their members during this period? Concluding that pay has been so eroded that a claim for a 35% uplift is 'reasonable' is just plain daft. I thought the RMT & ASLEF were the most militant of unions but that position seems to have been overtaken by the BMA. Both they and the government need to have their heads banged together and sort out this mess. 🙄
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 13:51:57 GMT
I think the whole purpose of strikes is that they are designed to cause inconvenience to the customer/user and therefore focus the employers mind. Otherwise what's the point of them? Also in ww land where most of the medical staff are idly doing laps of hospitals to kill a bit of time, the chaos caused when the said strikers walk out surely demonstrates that they must have at least some worth. I think the inconvenience to the user is why striking is always a last resort (must be shit for the doctors knowing the problems it causes for their patients). The problem with this government (and this is 100% their problem as the lag in pay rises has fully been on their watch) is that they have been reluctant to negotiate with any of the recent organisations that have striked. But is it 100% the government's problem? It's perfectly clear that the lag in pay rises for junior doctors has been 'on their watch'. But has the BMA not been guilty of failing to negotiate effectively on behalf of their members during this period? Concluding that pay has been so eroded that a claim for a 35% uplift is 'reasonable' is just plain daft. I thought the RMT & ASLEF were the most militant of unions but that position seems to have been overtaken by the BMA. Both they and the government need to have their heads banged together and sort out this mess. 🙄 You deserve a CBE for common sense. If only there was a vacancy?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 14:21:17 GMT
I think the whole purpose of strikes is that they are designed to cause inconvenience to the customer/user and therefore focus the employers mind. Otherwise what's the point of them? Also in ww land where most of the medical staff are idly doing laps of hospitals to kill a bit of time, the chaos caused when the said strikers walk out surely demonstrates that they must have at least some worth. I think the inconvenience to the user is why striking is always a last resort (must be shit for the doctors knowing the problems it causes for their patients). The problem with this government (and this is 100% their problem as the lag in pay rises has fully been on their watch) is that they have been reluctant to negotiate with any of the recent organisations that have striked. But is it 100% the government's fault? It's perfectly clear that the lag in pay rises for junior doctors has been 'on their watch'. But has the BMA not been guilty of failing to negotiate effectively on behalf of their members during this period? Concluding that pay has been so eroded that a claim for a 35% uplift is 'reasonable' is just plain daft. I thought the RMT & ASLEF were the most militant of unions but that position seems to have been overtaken by the BMA. Both they and the government need to have their heads banged together and sort out this mess. 🙄 The thing is, many unions have reluctantly accepted a pay freeze for the last decade. The government has constantly said that these people should take a hit for the greater good. I think it has reached the point that, having seen the government lurch from one diabolically inept and money-wasting decision to the next, the workers have had enough. Many of these people have effectively been told to shut up and accept a real terms pay cut... for the last decade and a half. Now they're finally standing up against it they're being made out to be greedy. Quite frankly they should be applauded for having bothered to continue to try to do something helpful with their lives rather than jumping ship into the unhelpful world of banking or, god forbid, politics. You shouldn't be blaming the unions for not having done anything previously, they did. They accepted that they should not seek a fair rise, for the 'good of the country' (whilst the sneaky politicians back pocket everything in sight). Now everything has truly hit the fan it's time for the government to empty their pockets and pay up.
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 14:49:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by Hawkeye on Jan 9, 2024 14:49:54 GMT
But is it 100% the government's fault? It's perfectly clear that the lag in pay rises for junior doctors has been 'on their watch'. But has the BMA not been guilty of failing to negotiate effectively on behalf of their members during this period? Concluding that pay has been so eroded that a claim for a 35% uplift is 'reasonable' is just plain daft. I thought the RMT & ASLEF were the most militant of unions but that position seems to have been overtaken by the BMA. Both they and the government need to have their heads banged together and sort out this mess. 🙄 The thing is, many unions have reluctantly accepted a pay freeze for the last decade. The government has constantly said that these people should take a hit for the greater good. I think it has reached the point that, having seen the government lurch from one diabolically inept and money-wasting decision to the next, the workers have had enough. Many of these people have effectively been told to shut up and accept a real terms pay cut... for the last decade and a half. Now they're finally standing up against it they're being made out to be greedy. Quite frankly they should be applauded for having bothered to continue to try to do something helpful with their lives rather than jumping ship into the unhelpful world of banking or, god forbid, politics. You shouldn't be blaming the unions for not having done anything previously, they did. They accepted that they should not seek a fair rise, for the 'good of the country' (whilst the sneaky politicians back pocket everything in sight). Now everything has truly hit the fan it's time for the government to empty their pockets and pay up. Except the government doesn't have any pockets or any money. The money is ours. It's we taxpayers who will be hammered as a result of collective ineptitude going back over decades.
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Deleted
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 14:57:27 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 14:57:27 GMT
The thing is, many unions have reluctantly accepted a pay freeze for the last decade. The government has constantly said that these people should take a hit for the greater good. I think it has reached the point that, having seen the government lurch from one diabolically inept and money-wasting decision to the next, the workers have had enough. Many of these people have effectively been told to shut up and accept a real terms pay cut... for the last decade and a half. Now they're finally standing up against it they're being made out to be greedy. Quite frankly they should be applauded for having bothered to continue to try to do something helpful with their lives rather than jumping ship into the unhelpful world of banking or, god forbid, politics. You shouldn't be blaming the unions for not having done anything previously, they did. They accepted that they should not seek a fair rise, for the 'good of the country' (whilst the sneaky politicians back pocket everything in sight). Now everything has truly hit the fan it's time for the government to empty their pockets and pay up. Except the government doesn't have any pockets or any money. The money is ours. It's we taxpayers who will be hammered as a result of collective ineptitude going back over decades. This government hasn't got any money because it has been shoving notes down its own pants for 13 years. Our money. But that's fine. It's all the fault of the people who actually work.
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Deleted
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 15:17:31 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 15:17:31 GMT
The thing is, many unions have reluctantly accepted a pay freeze for the last decade. The government has constantly said that these people should take a hit for the greater good. I think it has reached the point that, having seen the government lurch from one diabolically inept and money-wasting decision to the next, the workers have had enough. Many of these people have effectively been told to shut up and accept a real terms pay cut... for the last decade and a half. Now they're finally standing up against it they're being made out to be greedy. Quite frankly they should be applauded for having bothered to continue to try to do something helpful with their lives rather than jumping ship into the unhelpful world of banking or, god forbid, politics. You shouldn't be blaming the unions for not having done anything previously, they did. They accepted that they should not seek a fair rise, for the 'good of the country' (whilst the sneaky politicians back pocket everything in sight). Now everything has truly hit the fan it's time for the government to empty their pockets and pay up. Except the government doesn't have any pockets or any money. The money is ours. It's we taxpayers who will be hammered as a result of collective ineptitude going back over decades. Without sounding harsh age wise, you survived the 70s/80s when things didn't look too clever (although I was a kid so I had a great time), we appear to have high tax and low levels of service now. Is this bad? Or were those messy decades above worse? I appreciate the 2020s NHS is a much more complex beast than the 1970s equivalent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 15:22:44 GMT
Except the government doesn't have any pockets or any money. The money is ours. It's we taxpayers who will be hammered as a result of collective ineptitude going back over decades. Without sounding harsh age wise, you survived the 70s/80s when things didn't look too clever (although I was a kid so I had a great time), we appear to have high tax and low levels of service now. Is this bad? Or were those messy decades above worse? I appreciate the 2020s NHS is a much more complex beast than the 1970s equivalent. It's probably also worth remembering that the Tories have sold off countless assets since then as well. So whatever we were paying for in the 70s was actually ours. Nowadays what we're paying for is someone else's and is therefore being turned into private luxury yachts rather than assets from future generations of this country.
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 16:06:16 GMT
Post by GRL on Jan 9, 2024 16:06:16 GMT
Once again it precisely isn't. There is no longer any kind of bond between doctor and patient because you never see the same doctor twice. They never know their patients. It was Gordon Brown who precipitated this nonsense in mid-2000s. So you are saying doctors don't give a shit? P.S. Your "precisely" usually needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. I have not used that term, personally. What I do know is that there is a Monday to Friday 9 till 5 mentality these days. It even spreads as far as the Nuffield. Try and spot a vehicle in the car park between Friday and Monday. Get back to me on that one. Whilst I remember, also, none of the "district" nurses are in our district.
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Deleted
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 16:18:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 16:18:10 GMT
So you are saying doctors don't give a shit? P.S. Your "precisely" usually needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. I have not used that term, personally. What I do know is that there is a Monday to Friday 9 till 5 mentality these days. It even spreads as far as the Nuffield. Try and spot a vehicle in the car park between Friday and Monday. Get back to me on that one. Whilst I remember, also, none of the "district" nurses are in our district. Well if they are having unreasonable demands like that placed upon them it is little wonder they have had to resort to taking industrial action.
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 16:51:13 GMT
via mobile
Post by Hawkeye on Jan 9, 2024 16:51:13 GMT
Except the government doesn't have any pockets or any money. The money is ours. It's we taxpayers who will be hammered as a result of collective ineptitude going back over decades. Without sounding harsh age wise, you survived the 70s/80s when things didn't look too clever (although I was a kid so I had a great time), we appear to have high tax and low levels of service now. Is this bad? Or were those messy decades above worse? I appreciate the 2020s NHS is a much more complex beast than the 1970s equivalent. I survived the 40s, 50s & 60s too. Life in the UK is so very different now, in every respect, compared to when I was a kid and young adult. That is, at the same time, both a good thing, and not such a good thing.
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Deleted
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 16:54:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 16:54:50 GMT
Without sounding harsh age wise, you survived the 70s/80s when things didn't look too clever (although I was a kid so I had a great time), we appear to have high tax and low levels of service now. Is this bad? Or were those messy decades above worse? I appreciate the 2020s NHS is a much more complex beast than the 1970s equivalent. I survived the 40s, 50s & 60s too. Life in the UK is so very different now, in every respect, compared to when I was a kid and young adult. That is, at the same time, both a good thing, and not such a good thing. Mine and subsequent generations never show yours the gratitude it deserves for making our world a safer place. By seeing off the sabre toothed tiger.
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sisyphus
Senior Member
Taking no chances.....
Posts: 653
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Post by sisyphus on Jan 9, 2024 17:01:45 GMT
I must admit, I pine for the days when one had to go and look in a shop window to note when the electric was going to be on in order to plan cooked meals or have a bath.
Interesting comparisons from that time, a sitting Conservative Government having to make unpopular decisions and being duly battered by the powerful Unions. Election takes place, unsatisfactory result, so another election takes place. Labour get in and give massive pay rises to the mineworkers. Country eventually goes to the dogs, unions instigate ‘Winter of Discontent’ another election ensues which leads to years of Thatcherite Policy. Unions smite themselves into dissolution. Tories eventually self destruct. Blair years arrive. Labour eventually self destruct. Tories gallop to the rescue. Tories currently self destructing, but this time we have a Labour Government in waiting who have learned the lessons from history and will be in power forever….
Repeat.
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 17:35:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by Hawkeye on Jan 9, 2024 17:35:40 GMT
I must admit, I pine for the days when one had to go and look in a shop window to note when the electric was going to be on in order to plan cooked meals or have a bath. Interesting comparisons from that time, a sitting Conservative Government having to make unpopular decisions and being duly battered by the powerful Unions. Election takes place, unsatisfactory result, so another election takes place. Labour get in and give massive pay rises to the mineworkers. Country eventually goes to the dogs, unions instigate ‘Winter of Discontent’ another election ensues which leads to years of Thatcherite Policy. Unions smite themselves into dissolution. Tories eventually self destruct. Blair years arrive. Labour eventually self destruct. Tories gallop to the rescue. Tories currently self destructing, but this time we have a Labour Government in waiting who have learned the lessons from history and will be in power forever…. Repeat. About covers it. 👏 👏
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Deleted
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 17:55:07 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 17:55:07 GMT
Apart from the bit about Tories galloping to the rescue in 2010.
Nobody really wanted them (they needed the highly-regarded Lib Dems, remember?) and they did nothing but turn the banking crisis into a poverty crisis.
Absolute Farages. May they all rot in hell.
Edit: probably cuts out quite a bit of the stuff about Weapons of Mass Destruction, Surestart and the Educational revolution.
And then the destruction of affordable education...
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 18:12:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by Hawkeye on Jan 9, 2024 18:12:16 GMT
Apart from the bit about Tories galloping to the rescue in 2010. Nobody really wanted them (they needed the highly-regarded Lib Dems, remember?) and they did nothing but turn the banking crisis into a poverty crisis. Absolute Farages. May they all rot in hell. Edit: probably cuts out quite a bit of the stuff about Weapons of Mass Destruction, Surestart and the Educational revolution. And then the destruction of affordable education... Don't forget Gordon's PFI scheme. 😉
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Post by glawsterwhite on Jan 9, 2024 18:25:38 GMT
Can I add the loss of nhs dentistry to the current fkin shambles ! We had two start up locally in recent years .. to serve nhs customers. Now both private and there is nowhere in the county at all … This thread is depressing .. sorry to add to it but if labour do get elected this year I can see them up against a Johnson or farage led Tory party next time .. what a thoroughly shite thought !
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Deleted
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Tories
Jan 9, 2024 18:26:57 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 18:26:57 GMT
In truth you probably need 6 years of the Tories, then four years of Labour. On repeat. They would somehow regulate each other.
Just not these Tories. Ones that actually believe in what they do.
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