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Post by Gulliver on Feb 8, 2019 20:39:57 GMT
As such, matters of such fundamental constitutional importance and complexity should never, ever be put to the public vote. Otherwise you get the mess we're now in. Probably because you think that 17.5 million were too stupid to know what they were voting for! Wrong! This 'mess' is the sole responsibility of remainers who can't accept the majority vote that they agreed to abide by when they thought it was going to go their way. Sad losers! |
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 8, 2019 20:51:17 GMT
Can you point out anywhere in this thread where I have suggested that Leave voters "were too stupid to know what they were voting for"? I don't. I understand the Leave vote.
I can accept that I have asked on numerous occasions what it is that Leavers are voting for and why we have to leave to achieve what we already have.
Perhaps you can assist, given that you clearly think this is all the fault of those of us who said it couldn't be done.
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 8, 2019 21:00:39 GMT
Outside Schengen Outside the Eurozone Hardly meaningless. The U.K. Has enjoyed more meaningful concessions than the remaining 26 combined. And given the amount of EU money invested in Liverpool, Manchester, Cardiff, Birmingham etc etc etc together with the money paid to our farmers in subsidies, it's hardly money pissed up the wall.. But we pay far more into the EU the we get out of it so the EU hasn't invested a single penny in the UK, it's simply given back a fraction of what we paid them! Even if you don't believe the £350 million a week claim, most independent sources say that we pay between £150 million and £250 million a week to the EU. I'm sure I made the analogy earlier in the thread but it's like your mate asking you to give him a tenner to buy you a drink then pocketing the change for himself! In purely monetary terms, you're right of course. fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/But it's not just "purely monetary terms". There are less quantifiable benefits (not least in trade, workforce, freedom of movement, health, pensions, security, etc etc) that could be said to provide far greater value. Your analogy. You give your mate the tenner-he buys your pint and one for himself. He pockets the change, but then looks after you when the bouncers eject you, buys you a kebab on the way home and puts you in a taxi and checks in on you in the morning to make sure you're ok. And when you need it, pops a tenner in your pocket. Because that's what mates do. |
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Post by Gulliver on Feb 8, 2019 21:20:01 GMT
And given the amount of EU money invested in Liverpool, Manchester, Cardiff, Birmingham etc etc etc together with the money paid to our farmers in subsidies, it's hardly money pissed up the wall. Latest independent figures indicate that our contribution is around £18.6 billion of which approx. £4.1 billion is 'returned' as a rebate to the public sector (farmer's subsidies etc.) and a further discretionary £1 - £1.5 billion to the private sector (organisations, universities etc.) meaning our average contribution is around £8.5 - £9 billion annually. A considerable sum of money being 'pissed up the wall' instead of being spent on social services, police reinforcement, NHS and education, etc, etc , etc., in this country. |
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 8, 2019 21:25:00 GMT
See my previous post and link.
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Post by Monkey Tennis on Feb 8, 2019 21:31:07 GMT
Feck the football, what about the song contest? To be fair, we've always been a bit sh!t at that. "Save All Your Kisses For Me", being the notable exception. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 21:34:21 GMT
Theresa May reads this when hopping between crisis meetings.
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Post by Gulliver on Feb 8, 2019 21:51:32 GMT
Can you point out anywhere in this thread where I have suggested that Leave voters "were too stupid to know what they were voting for"? I don't. I understand the Leave vote. I can accept that I have asked on numerous occasions what it is that Leavers are voting for and why we have to leave to achieve what we already have. Perhaps you can assist, given that you clearly think this is all the fault of those of us who said it couldn't be done. Not having read through all 60 odd pages of this thread, I confess that I have no idea if you have made that suggestion but only said 'probably' since this seems to be the remainers general opinion of those who voted to leave. Idiots, nutters, racists, bigots and many others come to mind also.I apologise if I have incorrectly implied that you think along the same lines as many remainers. I can't answer for others as to what they want, whether voting to stay or remain, but for myself I want to live in an independent country that looks after it's own affairs, efficiently or otherwise, but responsible for our own decisions and actions. Can you imagine America being dictated to by say Canada or Mexico. Are you forgetting that we managed quite well before we were tricked into entering a so-called trade agreement back in 1973? A large majority voted in favour of staying in the EEC in 1975 believing it to be a beneficial trading agreement and not something destined to become an authoritarian regime as it is now. |
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Post by mikeunderpenyard on Feb 8, 2019 21:54:57 GMT
Theresa May reads this when hopping between crisis meetings. Puppet on a string. |
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Post by Gulliver on Feb 8, 2019 21:58:27 GMT
Feck the football, what about the song contest? To be fair, we've always been a bit sh!t at that. "Save All Your Kisses For Me", being the notable exception. Judging by the choices on offer today we'll be lucky to get on the scoreboard at all. |
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Post by Gulliver on Feb 8, 2019 22:06:02 GMT
But we pay far more into the EU the we get out of it so the EU hasn't invested a single penny in the UK, it's simply given back a fraction of what we paid them! Even if you don't believe the £350 million a week claim, most independent sources say that we pay between £150 million and £250 million a week to the EU. I'm sure I made the analogy earlier in the thread but it's like your mate asking you to give him a tenner to buy you a drink then pocketing the change for himself! But it's not just "purely monetary terms". There are less quantifiable benefits (not least in trade, workforce, freedom of movement, health, pensions, security, etc etc) that could be said to provide far greater value Surely a one sided argument! Those 'benefits' apply to all and more so for some EU members. |
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Post by singe on Feb 8, 2019 22:09:08 GMT
Can you point out anywhere in this thread where I have suggested that Leave voters "were too stupid to know what they were voting for"? I don't. I understand the Leave vote. I can accept that I have asked on numerous occasions what it is that Leavers are voting for and why we have to leave to achieve what we already have. Perhaps you can assist, given that you clearly think this is all the fault of those of us who said it couldn't be done. I can't answer for others as to what they want, whether voting to stay or remain, but for myself I want to live in an independent country that looks after it's own affairs, efficiently or otherwise, but responsible for our own decisions and actions. But you have all that already. With Brexit, you just stand to lose a lot. |
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 8, 2019 22:11:43 GMT
Can you point out anywhere in this thread where I have suggested that Leave voters "were too stupid to know what they were voting for"? I don't. I understand the Leave vote. I can accept that I have asked on numerous occasions what it is that Leavers are voting for and why we have to leave to achieve what we already have. Perhaps you can assist, given that you clearly think this is all the fault of those of us who said it couldn't be done. Not having read through all 60 odd pages of this thread, I confess that I have no idea if you have made that suggestion but only said 'probably' since this seems to be the remainers general opinion of those who voted to leave. Idiots, nutters, racists, bigots and many others come to mind also.I apologise if I have incorrectly implied that you think along the same lines as many remainers. I can't answer for others as to what they want, whether voting to stay or remain, but for myself I want to live in an independent country that looks after it's own affairs, efficiently or otherwise, but responsible for our own decisions and actions. Can you imagine America being dictated to by say Canada or Mexico. Are you forgetting that we managed quite well before we were tricked into entering a so-called trade agreement back in 1973? A large majority voted in favour of staying in the EEC in 1975 believing it to be a beneficial trading agreement and not something destined to become an authoritarian regime as it is now. Thanks for that. Can I ask the basis on which you have concluded that the UK doesn't look after its own affairs and isn't responsible for its own decisions and actions? The million dollar question-what particular influence of the EU do you object to? A regulation perhaps. Any decision handed down by the European Court that particularly rankles. Any restriction on Parliament's ability to legislate for the U.K. that offends. Might give us a starting point... |
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Post by Gresty on Feb 8, 2019 23:47:28 GMT
Erm. Aren't we already ruled by an Executive power? While we as an electorate vote in members of Parliament, that's as far as it goes. We don't vote in a "Government", a cabinet or a Prime Minister. All of these are chosen once we cast our vote at the ballot boxes. We don't vote in the sovereign Head of State. That's an accident of birth. We don't vote in the House of Lords-the appointments there are either as a result of accidents of birth or political patronage. Crucially, we don't elect the civil servants (aka the bureaucrats) who actually do the work. Unelected, unaccountable yet wielding massive influence over every aspect of this country. i didn't vote for David Davis to do sweet FA while hoovering up public money in salary and expenses as Brexit secretary. Or Raab. i didn't vote for Eton educated liar Johnson to make this country a laughing stock while bumbling around the world at our expense. Or for fabulously wealthy tax dodger Rees-Mogg to represent himself as a man of the people battling against the elite. Or failed banker and serial election loser and overt Racist Farage to take Putin's rouble to line his pockets at our expense while preaching hate. If you want to see corruption, then you don't need to cross the channel to see it at its most obvious and venal. The bottom line is that the influence of the EU has been overstated again and again. We are a sovereign nation We do make our own laws We do control our own borders We do retain our own currency We are outside Schengen We don't have a ban on bendy bananas We drive on the other side of the road We retain our own language(s) We are also a major player in one of the largest trading blocs on the planet. Individually we pay a small monthly amount. For the benefits of trade agreements negotiated from a position of strength. What actual opportunities will BREXIT bring? What laws will we make that we can't currently make. Where is the money for the regeneration of our cities and rundown areas going to come from. What do we have that other countries covet? What industry is left? There is no point in looking back to pre 1973. Please, someone, spell out precisely what this is all intended to achieve. Because I've been asking and asking, but no-one seems to be able to assist. Crikey. I know you said earlier that you had a day off, it was pissing down to the extent that the dog refused to go out and you welcomed contributions on the topic. But this exceeds all expectations. Don't know whether to agree with you or vehemently oppose your comments. And that, I guess, is a reflection on the whole bloody #@&tstorm currently afflicting all of us. PS. I do agree with your other earlier comment about Cameron. Have said the same, or similar, several times on this here forum. |
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 9, 2019 9:16:24 GMT
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FASH
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Post by FASH on Feb 9, 2019 10:05:01 GMT
A nice teaspoon of salt to start the day.
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Post by singe on Feb 9, 2019 10:37:54 GMT
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 9, 2019 11:48:46 GMT
Why have you chosen to pick out the three more obviously whimsical parts of my post out of interest?
My post was intended to address your point about not wanting to be "ruled by an executive"-the implication being that this country is labouring under some sort of unelected junta of unelected Eurocrats. The stark reality is that that is patently not true. I ignored a number of your other points (including the extraordinary reference to communism), otherwise my post would have stretched over several pages.
No argument from me. Just saying it as I see it.
Ultimately this is a problem caused by those who want to leave. Stoked up by a number of very rich politicians and newspaper owners who stand to benefit financially to a degree most of us can never ever hope to attain.
I have no solutions to the mess that has been created. And why should I? I have no ownership of this process or desire to leave the club that this country benefits enormously from. It's not perfect, but it's better to be inside leading reform rather than outside, massively weakened and at the mercy of bigger world wide economies.
BTW- the reference to young fella. Very complimentary. You'd be surprised....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 11:55:05 GMT
Why the hell would somebody who voted for the status quo need to justify anything?
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 9, 2019 11:59:46 GMT
I refer you to my sub editor's response above.
My position in a nutshell.
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