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Post by Differentiabull on Feb 9, 2019 21:45:47 GMT
Colebridge, it’s not extraordinary at all. It’s actually based upon ideological comparisons. The ideology’s of what we all define as Communism and that of the European Union are exactly the same. I’m not for a single moment claiming that the outcomes of the Unions ideology will result in anything like those that afflicted the Soviet Union.But it is the same ideology. For the now I’d acknowledge that it is a noble cause to spread the wealth through socio economic pressures that lever everyone up or down toward the same level of opportunity and economic wealth but that is for the now. Beyond that, ideologies and hierarchy’s evolve and unless the power is checked, balanced and corrected, like all things they slide and drift toward tyranny. Given that the unelected and politically appointed Executive now choose to fulfill their dreams and build themselves an armed force, I’d say the slide has already begun. Finally, excluding your first two paragraphs, I fully agree with everything else you’ve written and you’ve once again confirmed to me that you are a bright articulate and well read fella who’s probably not as young as I first thought. My best wishes and warmest regards to you. Sorry - the EU project is the same as communism? Isn't the EU single market just about the most comprehensive attempt at free market economics ever implemented? |
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Post by Differentiabull on Feb 9, 2019 21:50:29 GMT
Not having read through all 60 odd pages of this thread, I confess that I have no idea if you have made that suggestion but only said 'probably' since this seems to be the remainers general opinion of those who voted to leave. Idiots, nutters, racists, bigots and many others come to mind also.I apologise if I have incorrectly implied that you think along the same lines as many remainers. I can't answer for others as to what they want, whether voting to stay or remain, but for myself I want to live in an independent country that looks after it's own affairs, efficiently or otherwise, but responsible for our own decisions and actions. Can you imagine America being dictated to by say Canada or Mexico. Are you forgetting that we managed quite well before we were tricked into entering a so-called trade agreement back in 1973? A large majority voted in favour of staying in the EEC in 1975 believing it to be a beneficial trading agreement and not something destined to become an authoritarian regime as it is now. Thanks for that. Can I ask the basis on which you have concluded that the UK doesn't look after its own affairs and isn't responsible for its own decisions and actions? The million dollar question-what particular influence of the EU do you object to? A regulation perhaps. Any decision handed down by the European Court that particularly rankles. Any restriction on Parliament's ability to legislate for the U.K. that offends. Might give us a starting point... I'm not sure that's an argument that works with the position he holds. It's more about principles - the fact that the UK can have decisions and laws imposed upon it - rather than having truck with any specific law or judgment. |
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Post by Differentiabull on Feb 9, 2019 21:56:51 GMT
Don't tar all remainers with the same brush. I have no wish for a second referendum (nor the first in truth). It would solve nothing. The politicians of this country are paid (relatively well) to make decisions for the good of the country (at least that's the theory). As such, matters of such fundamental constitutional importance and complexity should never, ever be put to the public vote. Otherwise you get the mess we're now in. My preference. Someone with the cojones to stand up and say that the whole thing was a ridiculous mistake, call it off and face the flack from a few angry hi-vis jacket wearing shouty people until they get bored and go back to the pub. Sadly, this country is in the hands of people in thrall to the front page of the national press. What an absolute clusterfeck. I see no great desire for a second referendum in my echo chamber. While I appreciate it's certainly a clusterfeck and there's no non-ugly way out of this mess - surely a new referendum which reverses the decision is a less bad solution than a politician just calling the whole thing off? The latter option is 'we asked you what you wanted, and we're going to ignore it'. Another referendum can at least be spun as 'we asked you what you wanted, having found out it wasn't quite as easy as we'd hoped we want to check whether you still want to go ahead with it'. And if another referendum ended with another Leave vote, then it provides a firm mandate for exiting the EU on the terms that are now available to us. |
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 10, 2019 10:15:53 GMT
Don't tar all remainers with the same brush. I have no wish for a second referendum (nor the first in truth). It would solve nothing. The politicians of this country are paid (relatively well) to make decisions for the good of the country (at least that's the theory). As such, matters of such fundamental constitutional importance and complexity should never, ever be put to the public vote. Otherwise you get the mess we're now in. My preference. Someone with the cojones to stand up and say that the whole thing was a ridiculous mistake, call it off and face the flack from a few angry hi-vis jacket wearing shouty people until they get bored and go back to the pub. Sadly, this country is in the hands of people in thrall to the front page of the national press. What an absolute clusterfeck. I see no great desire for a second referendum in my echo chamber. While I appreciate it's certainly a clusterfeck and there's no non-ugly way out of this mess - surely a new referendum which reverses the decision is a less bad solution than a politician just calling the whole thing off? The latter option is 'we asked you what you wanted, and we're going to ignore it'. Another referendum can at least be spun as 'we asked you what you wanted, having found out it wasn't quite as easy as we'd hoped we want to check whether you still want to go ahead with it'. And if another referendum ended with another Leave vote, then it provides a firm mandate for exiting the EU on the terms that are now available to us. Like this? I take your point, and agree that this proposal has real attractions. Like anyone in a democracy, I reserve the right to change my mind. www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/09/back-theresa-may-brexit-deal-then-hold-peoples-vote-backbencher-plan |
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Post by singe on Feb 10, 2019 10:27:20 GMT
I like the prospect of this, accept MAy's deal then have a referendum. I can't see it working as the Tory party would implode before allowing it. The extremists (Rees-Mogg, Redwood, jammo) would never agree to this.
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 10, 2019 10:43:17 GMT
I'm not sure it would. It would isolate those who agitate for "no Deal" but there's not very many in Parliament pursuing that line.
It saves face for pretty well everyone (which in many ways is the solution they're looking for).
Perfect political compromise
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Post by singe on Feb 10, 2019 10:51:02 GMT
Interesting times cb (we've been saying that for a few weeks/months). About to head back to NZ and it's struck me how divided the UK is in the fortnight I've been over. My son just can't make sense of it all. Actually, I struggle too.
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 10, 2019 11:27:27 GMT
Whilst I’m not confident a second Referendum would stop the bickering I agree that it’s now a reasonable step to take. I’d support a second visit to the ballot box. Why not give the people the chance to consider their past choice. That said I believe that Diane Abbot was right when she implied that if the turnout remained as high as it was before, the Leave vote would still win the day. The problem is if she’s right, and I genuinely believe it’s a probability, then would that quieten the Remain side? i think it probably would. But, if the people did vote to Remain, and it could happen, then what do the Leavers do? I dread to think! That said, if it does nothing at all, a second Referendum might just be the trigger that forces our Parliamentarians to do their job and stop the prominent role they’ve all played in the promotion of discord and division of our people. The choice would be between the Withdrawal Agreement brokered by May (I know-bear with me on this) and Remaining on the same terms as we currently do (there is some polling that many believe that is the same as "no Deal"). There would need to be absolute honesty this time round. The Electoral Commission would need to take control of the whole process and ensure that the choices were clearly set out, while also addressing the huge amount of misinformation that was put in the public arena last time. (To avoid issues, on both sides). If the vote vote is to leave on May's terms, for myself I would absolutely accept that (with a heavy heart but still..). As, I suspect, would most ardent Remainers. I would expect nothing less from the vast majority of Leavers. Deal? |
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Post by Barney still in B-Block on Feb 10, 2019 13:08:34 GMT
Whilst I’m not confident a second Referendum would stop the bickering I agree that it’s now a reasonable step to take. I’d support a second visit to the ballot box. Why not give the people the chance to consider their past choice. That said I believe that Diane Abbot was right when she implied that if the turnout remained as high as it was before, the Leave vote would still win the day. The problem is if she’s right, and I genuinely believe it’s a probability, then would that quieten the Remain side? i think it probably would. But, if the people did vote to Remain, and it could happen, then what do the Leavers do? I dread to think! That said, if it does nothing at all, a second Referendum might just be the trigger that forces our Parliamentarians to do their job and stop the prominent role they’ve all played in the promotion of discord and division of our people. The choice would be between the Withdrawal Agreement brokered by May (I know-bear with me on this) and Remaining on the same terms as we currently do (there is some polling that many believe that is the same as "no Deal"). There would need to be absolute honesty this time round. The Electoral Commission would need to take control of the whole process and ensure that the choices were clearly set out, while also addressing the huge amount of misinformation that was put in the public arena last time. (To avoid issues, on both sides). If the vote vote is to leave on May's terms, for myself I would absolutely accept that (with a heavy heart but still..). As, I suspect, would most ardent Remainers. I would expect nothing less from the vast majority of Leavers. Deal? I like this, particular given that no other reasonable solution has been offered. And if a second vote was for leave, even by 1%, I too would accept it, move on, and do my best to make it work. Massive folly that it would be. If it were a no vote however, would chuck any ‘defenders of democracy’ taking part in the oft promised street riots straight in the Tower. Sharing a cell with Johnson, May, Farage and that utterly craven piece of effluent, Cameron |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 13:25:08 GMT
Bancroft?
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Post by eggchaserbull on Feb 10, 2019 14:50:28 GMT
One side of him should be roughed up before he's thrown in the tower. Could the outcome of his actions be measured by Robert McKenzie, and, in later years, Peter Snow? |
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FASH
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Post by FASH on Feb 10, 2019 18:17:07 GMT
Whilst I’m not confident a second Referendum would stop the bickering I agree that it’s now a reasonable step to take. I’d support a second visit to the ballot box. Why not give the people the chance to consider their past choice. That said I believe that Diane Abbot was right when she implied that if the turnout remained as high as it was before, the Leave vote would still win the day. The problem is if she’s right, and I genuinely believe it’s a probability, then would that quieten the Remain side? i think it probably would. But, if the people did vote to Remain, and it could happen, then what do the Leavers do? I dread to think! That said, if it does nothing at all, a second Referendum might just be the trigger that forces our Parliamentarians to do their job and stop the prominent role they’ve all played in the promotion of discord and division of our people. The choice would be between the Withdrawal Agreement brokered by May (I know-bear with me on this) and Remaining on the same terms as we currently do (there is some polling that many believe that is the same as "no Deal"). There would need to be absolute honesty this time round. The Electoral Commission would need to take control of the whole process and ensure that the choices were clearly set out, while also addressing the huge amount of misinformation that was put in the public arena last time. (To avoid issues, on both sides). If the vote vote is to leave on May's terms, for myself I would absolutely accept that (with a heavy heart but still..). As, I suspect, would most ardent Remainers. I would expect nothing less from the vast majority of Leavers. Deal? Deal? What sort of a deal is that for the leavers? At the moment it's between no deal and May's deal. Remaining isn't one of the options. Remain have nothing do bargain with to propose a 'deal'. If a vote did happen (which is a lose lose vote for leavers) then I would expect all leavers to boycott the vote and picket every ballot station to stop the vote taking place. It's quite ludicrous that one side will not accept, and has never accepted, the result of a democratic vote. |
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FASH
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Post by FASH on Feb 10, 2019 18:24:01 GMT
The choice would be between the Withdrawal Agreement brokered by May (I know-bear with me on this) and Remaining on the same terms as we currently do (there is some polling that many believe that is the same as "no Deal"). There would need to be absolute honesty this time round. The Electoral Commission would need to take control of the whole process and ensure that the choices were clearly set out, while also addressing the huge amount of misinformation that was put in the public arena last time. (To avoid issues, on both sides). If the vote vote is to leave on May's terms, for myself I would absolutely accept that (with a heavy heart but still..). As, I suspect, would most ardent Remainers. I would expect nothing less from the vast majority of Leavers. Deal? If it were a no vote however, would chuck any ‘defenders of democracy’ taking part in the oft promised street riots straight in the Tower. Sharing a cell with Johnson, May, Farage and that utterly craven piece of effluent, Cameron Nope. In the order of fairness and equality, I would hope that the leave voters would continuously whine on like spoilt brats and block the revoking of article 50 for a few years until we have another referendum. |
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 10, 2019 18:44:02 GMT
Pretty poor Bobby.
I thought better of you.
🤔🤔
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Post by colebridgebull on Feb 10, 2019 18:46:43 GMT
If it were a no vote however, would chuck any ‘defenders of democracy’ taking part in the oft promised street riots straight in the Tower. Sharing a cell with Johnson, May, Farage and that utterly craven piece of effluent, Cameron Nope. In the order of fairness and equality, I would hope that the leave voters would continuously whine on like spoilt brats and block the revoking of article 50 for a few years until we have another referendum. So do I. It would be enormously entertaining. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 19:22:25 GMT
The choice would be between the Withdrawal Agreement brokered by May (I know-bear with me on this) and Remaining on the same terms as we currently do (there is some polling that many believe that is the same as "no Deal"). There would need to be absolute honesty this time round. The Electoral Commission would need to take control of the whole process and ensure that the choices were clearly set out, while also addressing the huge amount of misinformation that was put in the public arena last time. (To avoid issues, on both sides). If the vote vote is to leave on May's terms, for myself I would absolutely accept that (with a heavy heart but still..). As, I suspect, would most ardent Remainers. I would expect nothing less from the vast majority of Leavers. Deal? Deal? What sort of a deal is that for the leavers? At the moment it's between no deal and May's deal. Remaining isn't one of the options. Remain have nothing do bargain with to propose a 'deal'. If a vote did happen (which is a lose lose vote for leavers) then I would expect all leavers to boycott the vote and picket every ballot station to stop the vote taking place. It's quite ludicrous that one side will not accept, and has never accepted, the result of a democratic vote. The democracy of which you speak put the Conservative party into power. They elected the government from among themselves. The government advised you how to react in the referendum which they then granted you. You ignored that advice and got it wrong. Which we all know you know.... You haven't told 'em how to do it yet. We knew what we were getting. You didn't. |
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FASH
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Post by FASH on Feb 10, 2019 19:33:57 GMT
Deal? What sort of a deal is that for the leavers? At the moment it's between no deal and May's deal. Remaining isn't one of the options. Remain have nothing do bargain with to propose a 'deal'. If a vote did happen (which is a lose lose vote for leavers) then I would expect all leavers to boycott the vote and picket every ballot station to stop the vote taking place. It's quite ludicrous that one side will not accept, and has never accepted, the result of a democratic vote. The democracy of which you speak put the Conservative party into power. They elected the government from among themselves. The government advised you how to react in the referendum which they then granted you. You ignored that advice and got it wrong. Which we all know you know.... You haven't told 'em how to do it yet. We knew what we were getting. Thanks. I didnt vote leave. I wouldn't trust any government's advice. Any advice from a government would always put big business before the people. The way to do it is just leave. Simple. Cheers. |
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Post by Palms Halt on Feb 12, 2019 10:19:09 GMT
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Post by Gresty on Feb 12, 2019 11:51:34 GMT
Seems this thread has turned into a magic show.
Never seen so many disappearing posts.
🙄
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 12:09:10 GMT
Seems this thread has turned into a magic show. Never seen so many disappearing posts. 🙄 That's because Boris keeps moving them. |
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