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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 18:01:46 GMT
I prefer to stay in the EU and I'd prefer to aid the infrastructure of poorer European countries than sell arms to Saudi Arabia.
That said I agree with Jammo on that if you want to negotiate something you don't rip up your top card before talking.
Which is why May should've said, after the humiliation of her poor deal being laughed out of Parliament, "right then, we press ahead with a No Deal Brexit".
Everything should've been in place by now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 19:00:01 GMT
Somnambulist, Albeit your highlighting a document produced in 2015 which is now somewhat outdated, I wasn’t thinking about it in terms of In or Out of Work Benefits. ‘‘Twas the other costs I had in mind that accompany supporting both the economically active and the inactive economic migrants and their 1.2 million dependents. It doesn’t come cheap. And whilst the profits are huge for business, who understandably favour cheap labour, the cost to the host country and its people are vast. Isn’t it common sense to accept that the rapid arrival of nigh on 4 million people must have an impact upon every single tier of our hard won much cherished public services? I think it’s reckless and irresponsible to pull a social and economic lever in Brussels that then causes over 19 million people to move from the East of the Continent to the West without considering the costs that land in the lap of the host country. Whats worse is in the name of the European Union we in the West have asset stripped these impoverished countries of their greatest asset. Their young, their brightest and fittest young people who’ve been coerced into leaving their homelands to tip up here and pluck chickens, pick fruit, wash cars and carry out low paid and low skilled jobs so that the few can become fabulously rich. I worked with one girl that had come from Latvia....she was a genius but was basically just doing dogsbody stuff, it was embarrassing to ask her to do anything. She landed a 150k job in London shortly after. Mind you that's probably a dogsbody wage in London! |
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Post by Barney still in B-Block on Jan 22, 2019 19:41:00 GMT
Tony, I used to fish the Wye with a lad from Latvia. A lovely fella. He’s married, he’s got 4 children and he’s been in Britain for ten years. Because his written English isn’t good he can’t do what he was trained to do. He picks fruit and works on the Farms. In his home City he was a Bio Chemist who once lectured in his City University. It’s madness! All that education and investment from his home in Latvia lost to picking fruit in the Shire.Agreed, it is a terrible shame that a bio-chemist isn't using his undoubted talents in a more appropriate way, but two questions. - What drives a clearly intelligent person to do what he did? Something does, and it's not the thought of watching HFC every other Saturday. - Would the fruit get picked, if we were to restrict it to a UK workforce only? I'm absolutely happy to accept that vast swathes of Brexiteers are in no way racist, but I fear many of them overestimate the ability of the British people to make things work anywhere near as well as it does currently. I work in healthcare, and the thought of the workforce without continued input from our European friends, cleaners to cardiologists, is terrifying. |
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Post by somnambulist on Jan 22, 2019 20:00:40 GMT
Somnambulist, Albeit your highlighting a document produced in 2015 which is now somewhat outdated, I wasn’t thinking about it in terms of In or Out of Work Benefits. ‘‘Twas the other costs I had in mind that accompany supporting both the economically active and the inactive economic migrants and their 1.2 million dependents. It doesn’t come cheap. And whilst the profits are huge for business, who understandably favour cheap labour, the cost to the host country and its people are vast. Isn’t it common sense to accept that the rapid arrival of nigh on 4 million people must have an impact upon every single tier of our hard won much cherished public services? I think it’s reckless and irresponsible to pull a social and economic lever in Brussels that then causes over 19 million people to move from the East of the Continent to the West without considering the costs that land in the lap of the host country. Whats worse is in the name of the European Union we in the West have asset stripped these impoverished countries of their greatest asset. Their young, their brightest and fittest young people who’ve been coerced into leaving their homelands to tip up here and pluck chickens, pick fruit, wash cars and carry out low paid and low skilled jobs so that the few can become fabulously rich. Well at least I produced some statistics, rather than the good old "it is reasonable to conclude". My guess is that a more recent survey would make your argument even less compelling. With your "other costs" in mind, I'm tempted to suggest you are conflating the cost of immigration with the result of eight years of unwarranted, politically-motivated Tory austerity. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 20:05:47 GMT
Tony, I used to fish the Wye with a lad from Latvia. A lovely fella. He’s married, he’s got 4 children and he’s been in Britain for ten years. Because his written English isn’t good he can’t do what he was trained to do. He picks fruit and works on the Farms. In his home City he was a Bio Chemist who once lectured in his City University. It’s madness! All that education and investment from his home in Latvia lost to picking fruit in the Shire.Agreed, it is a terrible shame that a bio-chemist isn't using his undoubted talents in a more appropriate way, but two questions. - What drives a clearly intelligent person to do what he did? Something does, and it's not the thought of watching HFC every other Saturday. - Would the fruit get picked, if we were to restrict it to a UK workforce only? I'm absolutely happy to accept that vast swathes of Brexiteers are in no way racist, but I fear many of them overestimate the ability of the British people to make things work anywhere near as well as it does currently. I work in healthcare, and the thought of the workforce without continued input from our European friends, cleaners to cardiologists, is terrifying. You are spot on there, Mr Record. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 20:59:36 GMT
Tony, I used to fish the Wye with a lad from Latvia. A lovely fella. He’s married, he’s got 4 children and he’s been in Britain for ten years. Because his written English isn’t good he can’t do what he was trained to do. He picks fruit and works on the Farms. In his home City he was a Bio Chemist who once lectured in his City University. It’s madness! All that education and investment from his home in Latvia lost to picking fruit in the Shire. It is quite true, sadly. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 21:59:09 GMT
There are nowhere near enough qualified people to staff the NHS without the migrant workers, I think everyone agrees on that. Depending on the exact Brexit outcome things could get a bit difficult, shall we say.
One answer is to get rid of the needless degree entry on some of the professions and get people in position, training and learning on the job. And not on the below minimum wage apprentice scam either.
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Post by Barney still in B-Block on Jan 22, 2019 22:23:08 GMT
There are nowhere near enough qualified people to staff the NHS without the migrant workers, I think everyone agrees on that. Depending on the exact Brexit outcome things could get a bit difficult, shall we say. One answer is to get rid of the needless degree entry on some of the professions and get people in position, training and learning on the job. And not on the below minimum wage apprentice scam either.100% There are folk who get a degree in a PAM and then never do a days work in that profession, just move into industry or sales or something. Big mistake, one of the biggest. |
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Post by Barney still in B-Block on Jan 22, 2019 22:33:00 GMT
Barney, the lad is here working all the hours that the day gives because his wage in Britain is nine times higher than at home. His wife and children are still back home in Latvia because they can’t afford to live here. As for your second question, I’m hopeful that the migrant labour will continue to work the agricultural sector under the provisions of a visa arrangement. That said, I appreciate what you are saying and I do understand the pitfalls that are inherent in the design of a Brexit..What you say and how you feel in terms of the future, particularly in regard to the Health and Care sector is something that should worry all of us. It concerns me also Barny. Whilst I want out, I am fully cognisant that there will be a hit of sorts either deliberately done to us by Brussels or by accident and like you I am worried about the outcome. Mind, despite all the rhetoric from both sides, I’m not frightened by it all. I remain convinced that the EU is a force for bad and I want out. My very best wishes and warmest regards to you. I'm far from convinced that the EU is a shining beacon of wonderfulness, the way some countries have been strangled by the bigger economies is shameful. It is without doubt over-beaurocratic, and much money is wasted. Which said, I believe there is no prospect whatsoever of challenging it, or pushing for change, if we're on the outside. And whilst not frightened, I'm very concerned for much of our society, if we crash out. Personally, I'll muddle on, but my kids, all of our kids, not so sure. Above all of which, if BoJo, Pritti Patel and Rees-Mogg are convinced it's for the best, then it absolutely is not. |
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Post by somnambulist on Jan 23, 2019 17:23:09 GMT
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Post by Gresty on Jan 23, 2019 18:04:09 GMT
Mr Varoufakis is an accomplished writer and an equally accomplished speaker. That said, there appears to be a 'peoples debate' ongoing 24/7 right now. The debate is being conducted on current affairs programmes on radio and tv every day and the broadcasters send out interviewers to conduct small 'focus groups' on the subject equally frequently. Parliamentarians argue on a daily basis and the general public also argue relentlessly whenever the subject of so-called Brexit arises. If the former Greek Finance Minister thinks a peoples debate will resolve the issue I believe he is very much mistaken because all we seem to do as a (divided) nation is agree to disagree and eventually just argue interminably without managing to reach a consensus. With respect to him, he may be better advised concentrating on affairs in his own country. We can continue to tear ourselves apart without his input, well intentioned as it may be. |
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Post by somnambulist on Jan 23, 2019 18:32:51 GMT
Mr Varoufakis is an accomplished writer and an equally accomplished speaker. That said, there appears to be a 'peoples debate' ongoing 24/7 right now. The debate is being conducted on current affairs programmes on radio and tv every day and the broadcasters send out interviewers to conduct small 'focus groups' on the subject equally frequently. Parliamentarians argue on a daily basis and the general public also argue relentlessly whenever the subject of so-called Brexit arises. If the former Greek Finance Minister thinks a peoples debate will resolve the issue I believe he is very much mistaken because all we seem to do as a (divided) nation is agree to disagree and eventually just argue interminably without managing to reach a consensus. With respect to him, he may be better advised concentrating on affairs in his own country. We can continue to tear ourselves apart without his input, well intentioned as it may be. My view on the piece is that he was taking the long view. An indefinite postponement will precipitate a general election, which will then hopefully usher in a truly progressive government that can shift the parameters of the debate, both with regard to Europe ("In the EU, against this EU") but also how we govern our own country). One of my criticisms of the People's Vote group is that it seems that for many of them 2016 was 'year zero' in their political analysis. They parade those stupid EU berrets and wrap themselves in the flag as if the EU were some great panacea to all of society's problems. When Corbyn gave the EU seven out of ten, to the consternation of the remain campaign and media alike, I think he got it about right. An emphatic endorsement would have been fundamentally dishonest; it needs root and branch reform. Personally I'd rather Britain were a participant in that reform, because as things stand the alternates are far more destructive for our economy. And just as an aside, I heard George Monbiot on Newsnight last night suggesting that climate change is thousands of times more important than Brexit, so why aren't we getting so enraged about that? I agree with him. Edit: By the way, Varafakis did "concentrate on affairs in his own country" for a while, but he was forced to resign. Guess who by? |
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Post by Gresty on Jan 23, 2019 18:46:21 GMT
Edit: This in response to som.
For sure, neither the EU nor the ECB were particularly keen on his management of the Greek economy.
😉
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 23:50:06 GMT
Going back to the NHS for a minute, not sure it's a given that people consider the "fuk up factor" that leads people to doubt themselves as they get older.
You can't afford to fuk up so plenty of totally competent workers bow out at say, 55, and get a less pressing job because they are worried that they will make a monumental mistake as they get older.
I've seen plenty throw the towel in. I know this doesn't seem relevant to brexit but time span of an NHS worker now is 30 years tops. If you are dedicated.
Most just slap it on the old CV and are off within 3 years.
So the roundabout point is, again, scrap the ludicrous degree entry for Nursing / Lab Staff etc and let's get some young people in post, learning and gaining the confidence needed to do the job. Half the problem with this country is lack of confidence.
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Post by Barney still in B-Block on Jan 24, 2019 10:15:40 GMT
Going back to the NHS for a minute, not sure it's a given that people consider the "fuk up factor" that leads people to doubt themselves as they get older. You can't afford to fuk up so plenty of totally competent workers bow out at say, 55, and get a less pressing job because they are worried that they will make a monumental mistake as they get older. I've seen plenty throw the towel in. I know this doesn't seem relevant to brexit but time span of an NHS worker now is 30 years tops. If you are dedicated.Most just slap it on the old CV and are off within 3 years. So the roundabout point is, again, scrap the ludicrous degree entry for Nursing / Lab Staff etc and let's get some young people in post, learning and gaining the confidence needed to do the job. Half the problem with this country is lack of confidence. That's terrifying*, but do I get a gold clock? *even more so for my patients. Poor bu****s.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2019 17:47:59 GMT
Going back to the NHS for a minute, not sure it's a given that people consider the "fuk up factor" that leads people to doubt themselves as they get older. You can't afford to fuk up so plenty of totally competent workers bow out at say, 55, and get a less pressing job because they are worried that they will make a monumental mistake as they get older. I've seen plenty throw the towel in. I know this doesn't seem relevant to brexit but time span of an NHS worker now is 30 years tops. If you are dedicated.Most just slap it on the old CV and are off within 3 years. So the roundabout point is, again, scrap the ludicrous degree entry for Nursing / Lab Staff etc and let's get some young people in post, learning and gaining the confidence needed to do the job. Half the problem with this country is lack of confidence. That's terrifying*, but do I get a gold clock? *even more so for my patients. Poor bu****s.
Na, no carriage clock. An ex colleague of mine retired last year after 35 years service. Had a massive stroke a few weeks later so he didn't get away for long. At one point few years back there was a special presentation for him incredibly not having one day off sick in 25 years. He got a £20 M&S token, prompting someone to shout "I think I'll take a weeks sick every year!" He even walked 6 miles to work and 6 miles back in the 2010 when the snow was so bad all public transport was cancelled. The rest of us were in the pub. |
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Post by ronnieclayton on Jan 28, 2019 18:17:08 GMT
Good summary letter in the I newspaper today.
The European Court of Justice has ruled that the UK can withdraw Article 50, so a No-Deal Brexit will be a deliberate choice. Now the Government is planning for martial law, food and medicine shortages, civil disorder and disruption comparable to natural disasters.
This is to fulfill a marginal mandate from an advisory referendum based on lies, illegal funding, foreign interference and data crimes.
Chris Webster.
So - how do we really want this one to go down in history?
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Post by Gresty on Jan 28, 2019 18:24:12 GMT
Good summary letter in the I newspaper today.
The European Court of Justice has ruled that the UK can withdraw Article 50, so a No-Deal Brexit will be a deliberate choice. Now the Government is planning for martial law, food and medicine shortages, civil disorder and disruption comparable to natural di***ters.
This is to fulfill a marginal mandate from an advisory referendum based on lies, illegal funding, foreign interference and data crimes.
Chris Webster.
So - how do we really want this one to go down in history?
It seems that how "we" want things to go down, either now or in history, is secondary to the whims of the intransigent politicians in the EU (and increasingly so in the Republic of Ireland!) and the UK parliament. Despair is the order of the day in my household. |
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Post by Incognito on Jan 28, 2019 18:34:47 GMT
Good summary letter in the I newspaper today.
The European Court of Justice has ruled that the UK can withdraw Article 50, so a No-Deal Brexit will be a deliberate choice. Now the Government is planning for martial law, food and medicine shortages, civil disorder and disruption comparable to natural di***ters.
This is to fulfill a marginal mandate from an advisory referendum based on lies, illegal funding, foreign interference and data crimes.
Chris Webster.
So - how do we really want this one to go down in history?
Preferably by having someone other than Chris Webster documenting it. He's a bit harsh on Gideon BTW. |
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Post by colebridgebull on Jan 28, 2019 18:38:05 GMT
The EU have set out their position. As have the ROI (who remain, of course, a member of the EU).
The problem has been May's ridiculous red lines. And her insistence on doing a "deal" with the EU within those red lines BEFORE putting it before Parliament.
She's come back with a deal agreed with the EU that is not approved by The UK' s sovereign parliament. Not really in a strong position to now go back to the EU and try and change it.
Bit like playing chess and gloriously checkmating yourself. And then moaning about it.
Idiot.
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