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Post by Peroni on Oct 15, 2018 9:54:53 GMT
every non UK person I’ve spoken to over here is utterly mystified about what is going on in Britain at the moment.
surely they must realise we have may in charge
ps when in eu, every non uk person i spoke to on the subject wants us out and their own country out
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Post by Incognito on Oct 15, 2018 10:07:02 GMT
Thanks. I will. Just about to board. Also hoping that we will enjoy similar free access to Europe in the future. As an aside; every non UK person I’ve spoken to over here is utterly mystified about what is going on in Britain at the moment. I could only describe it as a colossal brain fart. Which doesn’t translate well. ...was probably working in the tourist industry and, therefore, concerned for their own livelihood.
Conversely, I have visited Paris and Rome recently and on both occasions have had conversations with natives who wished for their countries to do the same and get out of the EU.
Funny old game innit.
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Post by Hawkeye on Oct 15, 2018 10:15:34 GMT
Might be useful to also draw attention to the Iranian treatment of Yemen, alongside the likely involvement of Hezbollah in events in that country. Just in the interests of balance. And no, I don't support what the Saudis are doing. The plight of the country is an international disgrace by any measure. Perhaps our government should concentrate on the arms we are supplying? With respect, I believe the situation is far more complex than what you're suggesting might help to resolve matters. There are many players in this debacle, as indeed there are throughout the entire middle-east and the North of Africa. Arab Spring anyone? The West has a lot to answer for. But so do those from the aforementioned regions, not forgetting Russia and probably China too. Dangerous times in every respect.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 10:28:10 GMT
Leonid Brehznev (sic), Lenny Bruce and Lester Bangs...
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Post by somnambulist on Oct 15, 2018 11:02:47 GMT
Thanks. I will. Just about to board. Also hoping that we will enjoy similar free access to Europe in the future. As an aside; every non UK person I’ve spoken to over here is utterly mystified about what is going on in Britain at the moment. I could only describe it as a colossal brain fart. Which doesn’t translate well. ...was probably working in the tourist industry and, therefore, concerned for their own livelihood.
Conversely, I have visited Paris and Rome recently and on both occasions have had conversations with natives who wished for their countries to do the same and get out of the EU.
Funny old game innit.
Italy, amongst others, has been poorly served by the EU in recent years. The protofascist government of Salvini can be attributed in no small measure to some of the actions of the EU. My friends in Italy (and I lived there for many years) are utterly despondent, not to mention fearful of the direction their government is taking them – censuring of the state broadcasting channels, scapegoating of immigrants, the normalisation and rebadging of a previously discarded far-right ideology... I voted to remain, but I did it firmly holding my nose. I hoped that root and branch reform would eventually occur and that we would be part of that process (I do wonder whether it is even possible at this stage). I also didn't trust our government to make a good fist of leaving. I think I got that one right! But even now, when someone tries to foist upon me a "B*llocks to Brexit" sticker, as happens so often here in London, I can't bring myself to put it on. Somehow I seem to equate it with an endorsement of the EU as it stands, and the polices which have brought some of our southern European neighbours to their knees, not to mention the re-emergence of far-right politics as acceptable. I don't suppose these people who drape themselves in the EU flag at demonstrations have ever spoken to an Italian taxi driver about the hidden suicide epidemic amongst middle age men in his country, or to a market trader whose kids have all emigrated because they couldn't find work in their own country. Of course, if we are given the opportunity to vote again, I will cast my 'remain' vote a second time – remaining will be good for the UK economy – but I'll do so firmly in the hope that this whole sorry episode might act as a catalyst to provoke real change towards a more enlightened and democratic European community, not as an endorsement of the status quo.
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Post by somnambulist on Oct 15, 2018 11:13:20 GMT
Perhaps our government should concentrate on the arms we are supplying? With respect, I believe the situation is far more complex than what you're suggesting might help to resolve matters. There are many players in this debacle, as indeed there are throughout the entire middle-east and the North of Africa. Arab Spring anyone? The West has a lot to answer for. But so do those from the aforementioned regions, not forgetting Russia and probably China too. Dangerous times in every respect. No, it's very simple. We are selling arms to Saudi Arabia and they are using those arms to kill civilians in Yemen. The ethical thing to do is to stop selling them. We won't of course, because self-interest invariably trumps morality in all governments. It is too easy to say there are other players involved, as some sort of justification for profiting from the conflict. Let the other players put their own houses in order, we can only be responsible for our own actions.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 11:16:59 GMT
Going it alone appears to have received another setback this weekend. The actions of Bath's Freddie Burns mincing behind the posts and crying when an inconsiderate Frenchman had the temerity to flick the ball so easily out of his grasp points - yet again - to the increasingly effete practices in Rugby Union and inadequacy of a nation.
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Post by Hawkeye on Oct 15, 2018 11:30:02 GMT
With respect, I believe the situation is far more complex than what you're suggesting might help to resolve matters. There are many players in this debacle, as indeed there are throughout the entire middle-east and the North of Africa. Arab Spring anyone? The West has a lot to answer for. But so do those from the aforementioned regions, not forgetting Russia and probably China too. Dangerous times in every respect. No, it's very simple. We are selling arms to Saudi Arabia and they are using those arms to kill civilians in Yemen. The ethical thing to do is to stop selling them. We won't of course, because self-interest invariably trumps morality in all governments. It is too easy to say there are other players involved, as some sort of justification for profiting from the conflict. Let the other players put their own houses in order, we can only be responsible for our own actions. Not trying to justify anything, Som. I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one. As always, there are three sides to every story.
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Post by colebridgebull on Oct 15, 2018 14:57:38 GMT
Thanks. I will. Just about to board. Also hoping that we will enjoy similar free access to Europe in the future. As an aside; every non UK person I’ve spoken to over here is utterly mystified about what is going on in Britain at the moment. I could only describe it as a colossal brain fart. Which doesn’t translate well. ...was probably working in the tourist industry and, therefore, concerned for their own livelihood.
Conversely, I have visited Paris and Rome recently and on both occasions have had conversations with natives who wished for their countries to do the same and get out of the EU.
Funny old game innit.
Not so. Other holidaymakers. But it really does depend on who you talk to. Out of interest, ex, do you think it’s going well? Still have faith that something will be cobbled together?
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Post by eggchaserbull on Oct 15, 2018 15:13:00 GMT
Going it alone appears to have received another setback this weekend. The actions of Bath's Freddie Burns mincing behind the posts and crying when an inconsiderate Frenchman had the temerity to flick the ball so easily out of his grasp points - yet again - to the increasingly effete practices in Rugby Union and inadequacy of a nation. The trouble is that many of today's rugby players, especially the backs, have decided to imitate their football equivalents in so many ways. Poncy celebrations when scoring, appealing to the referee, and crying. Oh yeah, and male grooming products (although not so much in Waikato, Otago and on the Highveld).
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Post by Incognito on Oct 15, 2018 15:25:57 GMT
...was probably working in the tourist industry and, therefore, concerned for their own livelihood.
Conversely, I have visited Paris and Rome recently and on both occasions have had conversations with natives who wished for their countries to do the same and get out of the EU.
Funny old game innit.
Not so. Other holidaymakers. But it really does depend on who you talk to. Out of interest, ex, do you think it’s going well? Still have faith that something will be cobbled together? No, it's not going well but that's not to do with the making of the decision by the referendum, it's to do with the pathetic negotiating by the cycle of personnel who've been involved. Barnier should have been told to feck off from the beginning. As it is, he's controlled and dictated the discussions. They need an agreement just as much as we do but there's 27 of them wanting it. Still time to tell him to go forth and let them do the sweating. They'll be back with an acceptable solution before you can say World Trade Organisation. Furthermore, if they want a customs border in Paddy land they can provide it, man it and pay for it.
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Post by Peroni on Oct 15, 2018 15:31:12 GMT
way to go ! stick that in your pipe and smoke it !
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Post by Incognito on Oct 15, 2018 17:20:55 GMT
way to go ! stick that in your pipe and smoke it ! ...and they should provide free beer for all West Midland league games
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Post by colebridgebull on Oct 15, 2018 17:40:16 GMT
Not so. Other holidaymakers. But it really does depend on who you talk to. Out of interest, ex, do you think it’s going well? Still have faith that something will be cobbled together? No, it's not going well but that's not to do with the making of the decision by the referendum, it's to do with the pathetic negotiating by the cycle of personnel who've been involved. Barnier should have been told to feck off from the beginning. As it is, he's controlled and dictated the discussions. They need an agreement just as much as we do but there's 27 of them wanting it. Still time to tell him to go forth and let them do the sweating. They'll be back with an acceptable solution before you can say World Trade Organisation. Furthermore, if they want a customs border in Paddy land they can provide it, man it and pay for it. How is telling Barnier (leading the negotiations on behalf of the 27) to feck off conducive to securing a future trade deal with the same 27 countries (because the whole point of the EU is to negotiate as a trade bloc as a whole) out of interest. There is this ridiculous fallacy that they need us more than we need them. It's utter bollox of course.
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Post by Incognito on Oct 15, 2018 17:49:19 GMT
I didn't say they needed us more, I said they needed us as much. We buy more from France than they do from us. Germany too I believe. There's plenty of incentive for them to want a deal. This fallacy that they don't need us is utter bollox
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Post by colebridgebull on Oct 15, 2018 18:22:41 GMT
My point stands. We're in no position to tell anyone to feck off (or renege on financial commitments). Where I do agree wholeheartedly is that the Government have ballsed up the "negotiations" in style.
The answer of some is to put Davis or Johnson in charge. Which is laughable as Davis in particular was supposedly in charge for the best part of two years until it was realised he'd achieved the best part of feck all. Johnson of course is a mendacious self serving clown.
There isn't anyone (it seems) with the quality, grit and determination to do better than the hapless May.
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Post by Barney still in B-Block on Oct 15, 2018 18:47:21 GMT
I didn't say they needed us more, I said they needed us as much. We buy more from France than they do from us. Germany too I believe. There's plenty of incentive for them to want a deal. This fallacy that they don't need us is utter bollox They (the EU) will take a hit on trade, if it comes to it, to send the 'no-one else had better try this' to the countries who also may have slightly feet. Only one side of this table speaking from a position of strength. And it's not us. May is hapless, hopeless, and gormless, but I doubt that anyone else would have achieved any more than a couple of percent 'better' than she will. If it happens.
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Post by Incognito on Oct 15, 2018 18:48:32 GMT
My point stands. We're in no position to tell anyone to feck off (or renege on financial commitments). Where I do agree wholeheartedly is that the Government have ballsed up the "negotiations" in style. The answer of some is to put Davis or Johnson in charge. Which is laughable as Davis in particular was supposedly in charge for the best part of two years until it was realised he'd achieved the best part of feck all. Johnson of course is a mendacious self serving clown. There isn't anyone (it seems) with the quality, grit and determination to do better than the hapless May. What Financial commitments? The present commitments relate to our membership of the EU. In March of next year those commitments come to an end. "If negotiations do not result in a ratified agreement, the seceding country leaves without an agreement, and the EU Treaties shall cease to apply to the seceding country"
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Post by colebridgebull on Oct 15, 2018 19:03:33 GMT
These ones. fullfact.org/europe/eu-divorce-bill/The point I'm making is that the UK could, of course, refuse to meet them. And become (trade wise at least) known as a country that is not to be trusted. It's all very well to say that hard ball needs to be played. You then have to analyse what that means going forward. Again-what do we have to play hard ball over?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 19:48:26 GMT
The vote to Leave was overwhelmingly down to xenophobic old people. It is this xenophobia which has condemned the United Kingdom to a worse situation than that which it was enjoying before the referendum. A huge majority of the general public is ignorant of politics and current affairs, let alone the nuances of trade.
If some tinkering was necessary, it should have been done from within the European Union. (We may give ourselves another chance if we have another go and get back in.)
In this ignorant nation I resent the fact that the man in the street has exactly the same number of votes as myself.
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