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Post by somnambulist on Sept 4, 2015 10:01:23 GMT
It's pretty simple. You could quite easily have been born into a family which has had to flee their own home. Fortunately, you were born in a relatively stable country at a decent time. I was born in 1941 when our country was being bombed to blazes and under threat of invasion by Nazi Germany. Had that succeeded you would not be sat at your computer making such stupid rash statements. Of course most of us are sorry for the plight of genuine refugees but just take a good look at a vast number of those claiming asylum, healthy young men who, like our parents and grandparents, should take up arms to fight for their country, not turn and run seeking handouts from us and the rest of Europe. You might want to wait until I actually contribute to a thread before gratuitously involving me in your post. I'm busy at the moment but I'll probably have a crack at it later, at which time you're welcome to fill your boots! |
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Post by richardwatts on Sept 4, 2015 10:13:30 GMT
I bet if Jimmy Harvey was running the world he'd sort out this refugee crisis within days.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 10:17:57 GMT
It's pretty simple. You could quite easily have been born into a family which has had to flee their own home. Fortunately, you were born in a relatively stable country at a decent time. Why am I not surprised somnambulist likes this comment. I was born in 1941 when our country was being bombed to blazes and under threat of invasion by Nazi Germany. Had that succeeded you would not be sat at your computer making such stupid rash statements. Of course most of us are sorry for the plight of genuine refugees but just take a good look at a vast number of those claiming asylum, healthy young men who, like our parents and grandparents, should take up arms to fight for their country, not turn and run seeking handouts from us and the rest of Europe. Fighting a war in an organised army for your country, continent and way of life is honourable indeed, but it can hardly be compared with the plight of some of these people. Which guerilla army are they supposed to join? Are you saying they should join terrorist organisations and engage in civil wars against corrupt totalitarian regimes (Eritrea for example), in countries whose borders have typically been arbitarily decided by fading imperial powers? I think both posts are extreme simplifications of complex issues. |
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Post by grubber on Sept 4, 2015 15:10:52 GMT
Confused with the similarities drawn by some posters to this humanitarian crisis and the Second World War? Did we not help refugees then despite our own relative poverty? Where did all the Jews go when displaced and the Western Europeans? Dunkirk spirit killed by Thatcherism.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 15:44:27 GMT
Surprised you're confused.
I wasn't suggesting similarities between the second world war and the migrant crisis currently unfolding.
I simply stated the fact that it had been assumed by another poster that the country of my birth was safe and secure at the time.
It was neither.
Anyway, I'm out on this one. I'll leave it to others clearly better qualified to pass judgement on what is and isn't the right approach to solving the problems facing the world.
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Post by ghostrunner on Sept 4, 2015 16:19:55 GMT
The right approach would be to help the vulnerable and those that need it the most though, surely? Wherever they are from.
Good post grubber btw.
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Post by nobby on Sept 4, 2015 16:22:35 GMT
Why am I not surprised somnambulist likes this comment. I was born in 1941 when our country was being bombed to blazes and under threat of invasion by Nazi Germany. Had that succeeded you would not be sat at your computer making such stupid rash statements. Of course most of us are sorry for the plight of genuine refugees but just take a good look at a vast number of those claiming asylum, healthy young men who, like our parents and grandparents, should take up arms to fight for their country, not turn and run seeking handouts from us and the rest of Europe. Fighting a war in an organised army for your country, continent and way of life is honourable indeed, but it can hardly be compared with the plight of some of these people. Which guerilla army are they supposed to join? Are you saying they should join terrorist organisations and engage in civil wars against corrupt totalitarian regimes (Eritrea for example), in countries whose borders have typically been arbitarily decided by fading imperial powers? I think both posts are extreme simplifications of complex issues. Organised army?.... Maybe we should treat the immigrants the same way as the Japanese treated our forefathers then |
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Post by sittingbull on Sept 4, 2015 16:30:59 GMT
Confused with the similarities drawn by some posters to this humanitarian crisis and the Second World War? Did we not help refugees then despite our own relative poverty? Where did all the Jews go when displaced and the Western Europeans? Dunkirk spirit killed by Thatcherism. The point was made that we lived in a secure and safe country, and as such we do. But as a country we did not desert it when things got bad, we fought, not just wars, the right for women to vote, equal rights etc... These people should be asking to be helped to put their country back together, not deserting it. Thatcher had nothing to do with it, but Blair did. Sometimes I think that religion is the route to all evils. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 16:59:03 GMT
Yes, I apologise for making a broad statement. I see that it does not apply to all.
I was merely making the (rather obvious) point that most of us are fortunate to live in a house, on a street, in a settlement in a country which is fairly stable.
As many of you (or your fathers and grandfathers) experienced the horror and destruction that war and large scale violence can bring, I would think that you would understand the need to look after people who are experiencing the same terrors in their own countries today.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 18:48:22 GMT
The recent announcement from Mr Cameron is going to cause national interest. What do you reckon? That that greasy, plate-faced cockwomble couldn't find his own arsehole with both hands. Why do you ask? |
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Post by convertabull on Sept 4, 2015 18:57:36 GMT
So because you and I are fortunate, hold on a minute ;- Our parents , Grand parents went to fight in the first and second world wars for freedom, we and them fought for the vote, we and them helped to move this country forward with hard work, industrial revolution etc.... I don't call people working down coal mines 16 hours a day fortunate, working on the land for 18 hours a day to see us through the wars. When the world was created, all the world was the same, it was the people who inhabited the land that helped it to develop into what it is today, don't tell us that we are privileged, many millions lost their lives for this country.(religion is todays problem, not being fortunate) Rule Britannia, and God save the Queen. Rant over. 1. "Grand parents went to fight in the first and second world wars for freedom". Yes, our grandparents/great grandparents fought in world wars for our freedom. By using that as a point in your argument you would therefore be endorsing the fact that freedom is something worth fighting for. Yet, your stance on refugees seems to be that they should be denied theirs? I presume that, had you lived in the 1930s/1940s, you would have had that stance against the Jews coming to Britain? If so, then that shows your true colours, if not then why are you prioritising Jews over Syrians? 2. "Millions lost their lives for this country". Yes they did, millions almost certainly billions, have lost their lives fighting for their country, tribes, lands over the centuries. That's history, that's why stories of war are more famous than stories of debates and discussions. That doesn't make it right but some perspective is needed and one war isn't more worthy than any other when lives are being lost. 3. "I don't call people working down coal mines 16 hours a day fortunate, working on the land for 18 hours a day to see us through the wars". I wouldn't either, but I would say that they are more fortunate than those that live in a culture of fear, have witnessed loved ones killed before their eyes or even tortured and possibly had to leave loved ones behind. There is a huge difference between working immigrants (Legal and/or illegal) and refugees that some people tend to forget. Refugees are seeking refuge not work, your jobs etc. They are living a life so terrible that they've had to flee their homes, often forced from them, put yourselves in their shoes. |
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Post by nobby on Sept 4, 2015 19:01:17 GMT
The recent announcement from Mr Cameron is going to cause national interest. What do you reckon? Whereas some will try and turn this into a Lib/lab, willy size, point scoring, champions league match i think he's done ok, the decision to take from the border camps will hopefully discourage people illegally trying to clamber into Britain |
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Post by Travis Bickle on Sept 4, 2015 19:21:11 GMT
Pretty much all of the crap going on in the middle east for the past 90 years was the fault of the West partitioning the Ottoman Empire up in a random manner after the end of World War 1.
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Post by richardwatts on Sept 4, 2015 19:56:39 GMT
Good word though, "cockwomble". Going to use that a lot from now on.  I can't see it catching on myself. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 19:58:00 GMT
Pretty much all of the crap going on in the middle east for the past 90 years was the fault of the West partitioning the Ottoman Empire up in a random manner after the end of World War 1. You Talkin' to Me? |
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Post by sittingbull on Sept 4, 2015 20:08:38 GMT
So because you and I are fortunate, hold on a minute ;- Our parents , Grand parents went to fight in the first and second world wars for freedom, we and them fought for the vote, we and them helped to move this country forward with hard work, industrial revolution etc.... I don't call people working down coal mines 16 hours a day fortunate, working on the land for 18 hours a day to see us through the wars. When the world was created, all the world was the same, it was the people who inhabited the land that helped it to develop into what it is today, don't tell us that we are privileged, many millions lost their lives for this country.(religion is todays problem, not being fortunate) Rule Britannia, and God save the Queen. Rant over. 1. "Grand parents went to fight in the first and second world wars for freedom". Yes, our grandparents/great grandparents fought in world wars for our freedom. By using that as a point in your argument you would therefore be endorsing the fact that freedom is something worth fighting for. Yet, your stance on refugees seems to be that they should be denied theirs? I presume that, had you lived in the 1930s/1940s, you would have had that stance against the Jews coming to Britain? If so, then that shows your true colours, if not then why are you prioritising Jews over Syrians? 2. "Millions lost their lives for this country". Yes they did, millions almost certainly billions, have lost their lives fighting for their country, tribes, lands over the centuries. That's history, that's why stories of war are more famous than stories of debates and discussions. That doesn't make it right but some perspective is needed and one war isn't more worthy than any other when lives are being lost. 3. "I don't call people working down coal mines 16 hours a day fortunate, working on the land for 18 hours a day to see us through the wars". I wouldn't either, but I would say that they are more fortunate than those that live in a culture of fear, have witnessed loved ones killed before their eyes or even tortured and possibly had to leave loved ones behind. There is a huge difference between working immigrants (Legal and/or illegal) and refugees that some people tend to forget. Refugees are seeking refuge not work, your jobs etc. They are living a life so terrible that they've had to flee their homes, often forced from them, put yourselves in their shoes. I have no problem with Jews, Syrians, Chines or Japanese, My problem is that opening the boarders will solve nothing in the short term, but could cause civil unrest in the long run, possible civil war, them against us, who knows. Your second point has no point. Your third point shows you know little of history of this country let alone any other. So your saying a refuge does not want to work, not after jobs? so you going to pay to look after them? The majority could fight for their country, like our ancestors did, If we hadn't Hitler would be ruling us now. When they bomb us we didn't all jump ship now did we? What about all the ex service personnel that are sleeping rough, the family that have to go to food banks, the parents that go without food so that they can buy their children a school uniform so that they can go back to school. What about the people who have been waiting months maybe years to have major operations to have a reasonable quality of life because our N.H.S. is at breaking point, people cannot find dentists, doctors etc.... the housing shortages for the people who are already living in our country? what about them? A young lad has drowned, yes it is very sad (I have children) but so have thousand of other people died, what makes him different ? no one is calling shame about his brother or mother, people are jumping on the band wagon when we are struggling to look after ourselves. Europe should be helping them to re direct their country, not over run ours. Blair has a lot to answer for. Had enough of this subject now, time to move on. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 20:17:40 GMT
1. "Grand parents went to fight in the first and second world wars for freedom". Yes, our grandparents/great grandparents fought in world wars for our freedom. By using that as a point in your argument you would therefore be endorsing the fact that freedom is something worth fighting for. Yet, your stance on refugees seems to be that they should be denied theirs? I presume that, had you lived in the 1930s/1940s, you would have had that stance against the Jews coming to Britain? If so, then that shows your true colours, if not then why are you prioritising Jews over Syrians? 2. "Millions lost their lives for this country". Yes they did, millions almost certainly billions, have lost their lives fighting for their country, tribes, lands over the centuries. That's history, that's why stories of war are more famous than stories of debates and discussions. That doesn't make it right but some perspective is needed and one war isn't more worthy than any other when lives are being lost. 3. "I don't call people working down coal mines 16 hours a day fortunate, working on the land for 18 hours a day to see us through the wars". I wouldn't either, but I would say that they are more fortunate than those that live in a culture of fear, have witnessed loved ones killed before their eyes or even tortured and possibly had to leave loved ones behind. There is a huge difference between working immigrants (Legal and/or illegal) and refugees that some people tend to forget. Refugees are seeking refuge not work, your jobs etc. They are living a life so terrible that they've had to flee their homes, often forced from them, put yourselves in their shoes. I have no problem with Jews, Syrians, Chines or Japanese, My problem is that opening the boarders will solve nothing in the short term, but could cause civil unrest in the long run, possible civil war, them against us, who knows. Your second point has no point. Your third point shows you know little of history of this country let alone any other. So your saying a refuge does not want to work, not after jobs? so you going to pay to look after them? The majority could fight for their country, like our ancestors did, If we hadn't Hitler would be ruling us now. When they bomb us we didn't all jump ship now did we? What about all the ex service personnel that are sleeping rough, the family that have to go to food banks, the parents that go without food so that they can buy their children a school uniform so that they can go back to school. What about the people who have been waiting months maybe years to have major operations to have a reasonable quality of life because our N.H.S. is at breaking point, people cannot find dentists, doctors etc.... the housing shortages for the people who are already living in our country? what about them? A young lad has drowned, yes it is very sad (I have children) but so have thousand of other people died, what makes him different ? no one is calling shame about his brother or mother, people are jumping on the band wagon when we are struggling to look after ourselves. Europe should be helping them to re direct their country, not over run ours. Blair has a lot to answer for. Had enough of this subject now, time to move on. Before we do move on, just out of interest, if it came to that and there was no end in sight, the country in ruins and, thinking only of saving your own life and those of your family, you made a run for it, with only the clothes on your back and whatever you could carry, giving the last of your cash to an unscrupulous criminal who chucked you all in a dinghy and pointed you in the direction of France, how would you hope the French authorities would react? |
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Post by bigglesbull on Sept 4, 2015 20:39:40 GMT
The recent announcement from Mr Cameron is going to cause national interest. What do you reckon? That that greasy, plate-faced cockwomble couldn't find his own arsehole with both hands. Why do you ask? His arsehole live nxt door at number 11 |
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Post by convertabull on Sept 4, 2015 20:42:53 GMT
1. "Grand parents went to fight in the first and second world wars for freedom". Yes, our grandparents/great grandparents fought in world wars for our freedom. By using that as a point in your argument you would therefore be endorsing the fact that freedom is something worth fighting for. Yet, your stance on refugees seems to be that they should be denied theirs? I presume that, had you lived in the 1930s/1940s, you would have had that stance against the Jews coming to Britain? If so, then that shows your true colours, if not then why are you prioritising Jews over Syrians? 2. "Millions lost their lives for this country". Yes they did, millions almost certainly billions, have lost their lives fighting for their country, tribes, lands over the centuries. That's history, that's why stories of war are more famous than stories of debates and discussions. That doesn't make it right but some perspective is needed and one war isn't more worthy than any other when lives are being lost. 3. "I don't call people working down coal mines 16 hours a day fortunate, working on the land for 18 hours a day to see us through the wars". I wouldn't either, but I would say that they are more fortunate than those that live in a culture of fear, have witnessed loved ones killed before their eyes or even tortured and possibly had to leave loved ones behind. There is a huge difference between working immigrants (Legal and/or illegal) and refugees that some people tend to forget. Refugees are seeking refuge not work, your jobs etc. They are living a life so terrible that they've had to flee their homes, often forced from them, put yourselves in their shoes. I have no problem with Jews, Syrians, Chines or Japanese, My problem is that opening the boarders will solve nothing in the short term, but could cause civil unrest in the long run, possible civil war, them against us, who knows. Your second point has no point. Your third point shows you know little of history of this country let alone any other. So your saying a refuge does not want to work, not after jobs? so you going to pay to look after them? The majority could fight for their country, like our ancestors did, If we hadn't Hitler would be ruling us now. When they bomb us we didn't all jump ship now did we? What about all the ex service personnel that are sleeping rough, the family that have to go to food banks, the parents that go without food so that they can buy their children a school uniform so that they can go back to school. What about the people who have been waiting months maybe years to have major operations to have a reasonable quality of life because our N.H.S. is at breaking point, people cannot find dentists, doctors etc.... the housing shortages for the people who are already living in our country? what about them? A young lad has drowned, yes it is very sad (I have children) but so have thousand of other people died, what makes him different ? no one is calling shame about his brother or mother, people are jumping on the band wagon when we are struggling to look after ourselves. Europe should be helping them to re direct their country, not over run ours. Blair has a lot to answer for. Had enough of this subject now, time to move on. "I have no problem with Jews, Syrians, Chines or Japanese, My problem is that opening the boarders will solve nothing in the short term." - So it's a NIMBY approach to immigrants then? You have no problem with them, so long as they don't come here? "could cause civil unrest in the long run, possible civil war, them against us, who knows." - You genuinely think they're going to cause a civil war against us? That sounds like you've drunk the EDL Cool Aid. We haven't had a civil war in a few centuries and so many immigrants have come in that time, compared to the past few years, so I don't think a few thousand refugees are a threat. "The majority could fight for their country, like our ancestors did, If we hadn't Hitler would be ruling us now. When they bomb us we didn't all jump ship now did we?" - For a start, I think Hitler would be dead by now. Secondly, France, Poland, Austria, Belgium et al fought back, that didn't go particularly well for them did it? Thirdly, you're right, we didn't jump ship, mainly because we had one of the most advanced and best military establishments and leaders on the planet and we were backed up by some of the others. That's not the case in Syria though, it's a civil conflict where the residents don't know which side to trust. I also don't like how you're suggesting that they're running because they are cowardly. If I had the chance to get away from conflict with my young son and wife without having to fire a weapon or kill another human I would. "Our N.H.S. is at breaking point, people cannot find dentists, doctors etc.... the housing shortages for the people who are already living in our country? what about them?" - Put yourself in their shoes, for just a moment. Option A; Live in a country rife with murder, bloodshed, conflict, constant and oppressive fear. Option B; Move to a country that's not at war and where the people complain about not having a dentist. "Your third point shows you know little of history of this country let alone any other." - If only I hadn't wasted all that time getting my history degree! I'm not surprised by your response and I know that I can't change it, nobody will. It's the view of a stereotypical older generation from a rural area*, I just hope the younger generations can look at people in need and offer their help. Treat people how they would like to be treated themselves. *I am not making assumptions about your age or location, I am just saying that your particular point of view matches it. |
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Post by convertabull on Sept 4, 2015 20:52:22 GMT
I have no problem with Jews, Syrians, Chines or Japanese, My problem is that opening the boarders will solve nothing in the short term, but could cause civil unrest in the long run, possible civil war, them against us, who knows. Your second point has no point. Your third point shows you know little of history of this country let alone any other. So your saying a refuge does not want to work, not after jobs? so you going to pay to look after them? The majority could fight for their country, like our ancestors did, If we hadn't Hitler would be ruling us now. When they bomb us we didn't all jump ship now did we? What about all the ex service personnel that are sleeping rough, the family that have to go to food banks, the parents that go without food so that they can buy their children a school uniform so that they can go back to school. What about the people who have been waiting months maybe years to have major operations to have a reasonable quality of life because our N.H.S. is at breaking point, people cannot find dentists, doctors etc.... the housing shortages for the people who are already living in our country? what about them? A young lad has drowned, yes it is very sad (I have children) but so have thousand of other people died, what makes him different ? no one is calling shame about his brother or mother, people are jumping on the band wagon when we are struggling to look after ourselves. Europe should be helping them to re direct their country, not over run ours. Blair has a lot to answer for. Had enough of this subject now, time to move on. Before we do move on, just out of interest, if it came to that and there was no end in sight, the country in ruins and, thinking only of saving your own life and those of your family, you made a run for it, with only the clothes on your back and whatever you could carry, giving the last of your cash to an unscrupulous criminal who chucked you all in a dinghy and pointed you in the direction of France, how would you hope the French authorities would react?By his rules, he'd hope that they say "Man up and f*ck off back home" |
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