The true cost of BREXIT

[Barney still in B-Block]

Dec 10, 2018 13:11:12 GMT FASH said:

Dec 10, 2018 12:57:59 GMT Barney still in B-Block said:

Sorry, wrong day to attempt a little humour, clearly.

Sorry, I didn't know you were having a bad day.

Neither did I, but thanks for clearing things up. 

[Gresty]

Dec 10, 2018 13:20:23 GMT colebridgebull said:

Dec 10, 2018 13:00:25 GMT Gresty said:

* In response to cb.

You could be right.

1530: Statement by the PM.

Followed by a statement by the Leader of the House (Lord knows we need some leadership!).

Followed by a statement from the Brexit Secretary.

Fascinating but scary times.

Crisis? What Crisis?

The Leader of the House is Andrea Leadsom. I'll just leave it at that.

My take (FWIW) is that the choice is now binary again. No Deal or No BREXIT. May may try and cling on, but there's been two entirely foreseeable body blows today (the Art 50 decision and the EU saying no further negotiation-and why would they.)

There are advocates of No Deal out there, but all the so called "Project Fear" warnings are inevitably going to become Project Reality in that scenario.

It seems that slowly but surely Parliament is exerting its authority and taking back control of the whole debacle. 

Not sure quite what you were suggesting, but for the avoidance of doubt, I do know who is the Leader of the House.

😉

I also am aware that, unusually for the postholder, she is not a member of the Cabinet, although she does attend Cabinet meetings.

Bizarre.

As is much of this entire debacle.

BTW, did you place a wager on your original assertion all those months ago?

[Deleted]

I think anyone is kidding themselves if they think it wont happen in some form. Most MP's seem in complete denial about how many people want Brexit to go through parliament even if it isn't in the way of this current deal. Just seen a few tweets from Labour MP's and the replies to them. Angela Reyna putting "LOL" and laughing emotes isn't going down to well in Oldham it seems. Labour isn't exactly flying high at the moment especially when Nicola Sturgeon is knocking on the door. Just look at the shambles she's created in Scotland as well.

[colebridgebull]

Presumably you wrote that last sentence very much tongue in cheek given the current utter clusterfeck the Tories have caused since 2015

[Palms Halt]

Dec 10, 2018 13:55:34 GMT @jammo said:

Most MP's seem in complete denial about how many people want Brexit to go through parliament even if it isn't in the way of this current deal. 

Just like people like you are in complete denial about how many people have realised that brexit is a huge mistake and wish they'd not voted for it now. 

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence (and that means the vast majority of people) has the ability to recognise when they've made a mistake and change their minds.

A lot has happened to form opinion in the last 2 and a half years

[Deleted]

People continuing to see this from their usual entrenched party perspectives.
Dumb.

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2018 13:57:17 GMT colebridgebull said:

Presumably you wrote that last sentence very much tongue in cheek given the current utter clusterfeck the Tori's have caused since 2015

I don't really see it that way at all. There's no easy way to make a Brexit that everyone will be happy with. Do you really think that if Labour had been in charge it would have been any different? Like I said another referendum vote is almost impossible because you can't create a question that isn't biased one way or the other. 

[Deleted]

Glad you deleted that last one Newboy. Both my grandfathers risked their lives for this country during WWII. In all honesty I've never asked them which way they voted, But I think I can still hazard a guess that they've given more to this country than 20 year old undergraduate Chelsea who's doing an English degree at Southampton Solent University.

[Barney still in B-Block]

Dec 10, 2018 13:59:28 GMT @wainwrong said:

People continuing to see this from their usual entrenched party perspectives.
Dumb.

ww continuing to generalise, knowingly and gigantically.


Predictable.  

[changeabull]

Dec 10, 2018 13:58:55 GMT Palms Halt said:

Dec 10, 2018 13:55:34 GMT @jammo said:

Most MP's seem in complete denial about how many people want Brexit to go through parliament even if it isn't in the way of this current deal. 

Just like people like you are in complete denial about how many people have realised that brexit is a huge mistake and wish they'd not voted for it now. 

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence (and that means the vast majority of people) has the ability to recognise when they've made a mistake and change their minds.

A lot has happened to form opinion in the last 2 and a half years

 No it hasn't. I don't know a single person whose changed there minds about Brexit in the past two and a half years, all that's happened is that people have become so firmly entrenched in their opinions that neither side will accept the result of a new referendum, which is why having one is a complete waste of time.

[FASH]

Whether you're one of the 52% or the 48% the government has failed 100% of the people.

Either way, if we leave with no deal or we don't leave at all the country is likely to decline into civil unrest. Too much damage has been done.

Just tell us which way it's going and let's get on with it.

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2018 14:14:32 GMT Barney still in B-Block said:

Dec 10, 2018 13:59:28 GMT @wainwrong said:

People continuing to see this from their usual entrenched party perspectives.
Dumb.

ww continuing to generalise, knowingly and gigantically.


Predictable.  

Obviously, as somebody who follows it rather more closely than most, I'm reasonably pleased that I got it right, as usual.
It was all caused by party politics, as advised by me on here at the time and the continued party points scoring by the likes of jammo and cb doesn't encourage one to think they'd be any better than Cameron or Madame Defarge.

The main problem facing this country is the lack of productivity, ignorance and indolence of the fecking proletariate.

[Barney still in B-Block]

Dec 10, 2018 14:15:11 GMT changeabull said:

Dec 10, 2018 13:58:55 GMT Palms Halt said:

Just like people like you are in complete denial about how many people have realised that brexit is a huge mistake and wish they'd not voted for it now. 

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence (and that means the vast majority of people) has the ability to recognise when they've made a mistake and change their minds.

A lot has happened to form opinion in the last 2 and a half years

 No it hasn't. I don't know a single person whose changed there minds about Brexit in the past two and a half years, all that's happened is that people have become so firmly entrenched in their opinions that neither side will accept the result of a new referendum, which is why having one is a complete waste of time.

Well one side or t'other will have to live with a result before long, even if they don't accept it. But for what it's worth, how many voters did you survey in this poll of yours? 

Mine is 30-ish, family members, and of the six who voted to leave, three would now vote remain. 

It seems that Project Fear has been hijacked by the hard-line Brexiteers, who are now upset that their lies have been exposed, their forecasts refuted, and that their version of democracy won't be the one that finally sees common-sense prevail. 

(But even more, that they won't be cashing in financially, the main reason why this sh1tshow is even happening.)

[colebridgebull]

Dec 10, 2018 14:01:03 GMT @jammo said:

Dec 10, 2018 13:57:17 GMT colebridgebull said:

Presumably you wrote that last sentence very much tongue in cheek given the current utter clusterfeck the Tori's have caused since 2015

I don't really see it that way at all. There's no easy way to make a Brexit that everyone will be happy with. Do you really think that if Labour had been in charge it would have been any different? Like I said another referendum vote is almost impossible because you can't create a question that isn't biased one way or the other. 

I agree that Labour (under whatever leadership) would have made a similar hash of it, although I would hope that the party would have been rather more honest about things than the current Govt.

Not sure what you mean about biased though. If there is a vote on "No Deal" or "Remain on same terms" (latter confirmed by ECJ this morning) then the options are pretty clear. Needs honesty about the effect of No Deal of course. We know what we're getting with Remain

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2018 14:26:46 GMT Barney still in B-Block said:

Dec 10, 2018 14:15:11 GMT changeabull said:

 No it hasn't. I don't know a single person whose changed there minds about Brexit in the past two and a half years, all that's happened is that people have become so firmly entrenched in their opinions that neither side will accept the result of a new referendum, which is why having one is a complete waste of time.

Well one side or t'other will have to live with a result before long, even if they don't accept it. But for what it's worth, how many voters did you survey in this poll of yours? 

Mine is 30-ish, family members, and of the six who voted to leave, three would now vote remain. 

It seems that Project Fear has been hijacked by the hard-line Brexiteers, who are now upset that their lies have been exposed, their forecasts refuted, and that their version of democracy won't be the one that finally sees common-sense prevail. 

(But even more, that they won't be cashing in financially, the main reason why this sh1tshow is even happening.)

But how many of the remainers in your family would now vote leave? Because of the referendum result everyone became obsessed with the leave voters and whether they'd change their minds. No one has given any thought to the possibility that the other side might do the same. I would hazard a guess that many remainers who've changed their minds are probably now reluctant to say given how over the top people can get over this issue. I mean it matters of course but kids not talking to parents and couples getting divorced. Its no wonder some people who change their minds keep it to themselves now. 

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2018 14:29:21 GMT colebridgebull said:

Dec 10, 2018 14:01:03 GMT @jammo said:

I don't really see it that way at all. There's no easy way to make a Brexit that everyone will be happy with. Do you really think that if Labour had been in charge it would have been any different? Like I said another referendum vote is almost impossible because you can't create a question that isn't biased one way or the other. 

I agree that Labour (under whatever leadership) would have made a similar hash of it, although I would hope that the party would have been rather more honest about things than the current Govt.

Not sure what you mean about biased though. If there is a vote on "No Deal" or "Remain on same terms" (latter confirmed by ECJ this morning) then the options are pretty clear. Needs honesty about the effect of No Deal of course. We know what we're getting with Remain

You're actually saying we should have a vote between no deal and remain. Is that a joke? How can you not see that that's not biased in any way. 

[colebridgebull]

Have you not been paying attention?

There is no other option any more.

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2018 14:33:04 GMT @jammo said:

Dec 10, 2018 14:29:21 GMT colebridgebull said:

I agree that Labour (under whatever leadership) would have made a similar hash of it, although I would hope that the party would have been rather more honest about things than the current Govt.

Not sure what you mean about biased though. If there is a vote on "No Deal" or "Remain on same terms" (latter confirmed by ECJ this morning) then the options are pretty clear. Needs honesty about the effect of No Deal of course. We know what we're getting with Remain

You're actually saying we should have a vote between no deal and remain. Is that a joke? How can you not see that that's not biased in any way. 

If the government can't get their version of the agreement through parliament and the EU are not prepared to negotiate further what other options are there?

[Barney still in B-Block]

Dec 10, 2018 14:31:05 GMT @jammo said:

Dec 10, 2018 14:26:46 GMT Barney still in B-Block said:

Well one side or t'other will have to live with a result before long, even if they don't accept it. But for what it's worth, how many voters did you survey in this poll of yours? 

Mine is 30-ish, family members, and of the six who voted to leave, three would now vote remain. 

It seems that Project Fear has been hijacked by the hard-line Brexiteers, who are now upset that their lies have been exposed, their forecasts refuted, and that their version of democracy won't be the one that finally sees common-sense prevail. 

(But even more, that they won't be cashing in financially, the main reason why this sh1tshow is even happening.)

But how many of the remainers in your family would now vote leave? Because of the referendum result everyone became obsessed with the leave voters and whether they'd change their minds. No one has given any thought to the possibility that the other side might do the same. I would hazard a guess that many remainers who've changed their minds are probably now reluctant to say given how over the top people can get over this issue. I mean it matters of course but kids not talking to parents and couples getting divorced. Its no wonder some people who change their minds keep it to themselves now. 

None. In fact many would vote twice to remain, given the chance. 

There have been lies on both sides, and most of the remainers I speak with are far from the view that the EU is perfect and not in need of reform, but the biggest lies by far are by those who stand to lose most if we remain in the EU - you know who they are. 

Common-sense will prevail, and this historically all-time low watermark government and opposition will, eventually, do the right thing for the country. 

[FASH]

Dec 10, 2018 14:46:37 GMT Jonny Dangerous said:

Dec 10, 2018 14:33:04 GMT @jammo said:

You're actually saying we should have a vote between no deal and remain. Is that a joke? How can you not see that that's not biased in any way. 

If the government can't get their version of the agreement through parliament and the EU are not prepared to negotiate further what other options are there?

Another option could be to set everything up so the public think we've left but secretly we've stayed in. Tell everyone we've negotiated the same trade deals with the EU, print some blue passports and the people won't know any difference.