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Post by Monkey Tennis on May 4, 2016 18:26:15 GMT
In. Out.
Shake yer tail about.
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Post by somnambulist on May 4, 2016 18:40:41 GMT
Irresponsible scare tactics not supported by evidence, and refuted by security experts including Sir David Omand, the former director of GCHQ. You really are as daft on politics as you are on all things HFC. "NO BRAINER"? That would seem like a prerequisite in your case. Was at first surprised you outed yourself as a remain, given your stance on openness and transparency, then I kicked into the only motivated by self intrest mode which seems to drive nearly everything you say. So no surprise after all Hi Biggles. No idea what you are talking about. Remember when when you and I used to write polite, informed, even friendly PMs to each other. Whatever happened? Keep playing to the crowd, mate.
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Post by Jean Ralphio Saperstein on May 4, 2016 18:50:06 GMT
Whatever happens, I fear the people will lose. I have very little time for the corporatist monolith that is the EU. There is a severe lack of transparency and democracy, and the way that the Greeks were treated (to bring them and others to heel) was chilling.
However, I look at who will be holding the reigns if we leave, and I think it would be the worst of both worlds (or the "Worth of boast worlds" AP fans), as the likes of Gove, Johnson, Farage et al would drive their own version of TTIP. Why wouldn't they? They are all ideologically opposed to bodies such as the NHS, so when they use it for their cause, it rings very hollow indeed. They also have no time for the protections of workers and human rights.
On this basis, I will most probably hold my nose and vote remain, but a plague on both their houses!
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Post by somnambulist on May 4, 2016 18:54:44 GMT
Whatever happens, I fear the people will lose. I have very little time for the corporatist monolith that is the EU. There is a severe lack of transparency and democracy, and the way that the Greeks were treated (to bring them and others to heel) was chilling. However, I look at who will be holding the reigns if we leave, and I think it would be the worst of both worlds (or the "Worth of boast worlds" AP fans), as the likes of Gove, Johnson, Farage et al would drive their own version of TTIP. Why wouldn't they? They are all ideologically opposed to bodies such as the NHS, so when they use it for their cause, it rings very hollow indeed. They also have no time for the protections of workers and human rights. On this basis, I will most probably hold my nose and vote remain, but a plague on both their houses! Very eloquently put.
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Post by colebridgebull on May 4, 2016 19:05:00 GMT
I have a theory which I have also floated elsewhere that the result is pre-determined ie that whatever the result of the referendum we will remain in. This is in truth a political battle. Cameron made a promise of a referendum to see off UKIP in the last election. Having made this promise, to maintain his credibility in his party, he had to keep it.
He can't lose. He's going anyway. Win and he can set the date he leaves. Lose and he'll still be able to do the same. But bottom line is that we'll remain whatever the outcome because there is no good economic reason to leave. A leave vote will simply result in re-negotiation-whether from strength or weakness remains to be seen.
That may appear to be a bit clumsy,-it's been a long day
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Post by bigglesbull on May 4, 2016 20:10:39 GMT
I have a theory which I have also floated elsewhere that the result is pre-determined ie that whatever the result of the referendum we will remain in. This is in truth a political battle. Cameron made a promise of a referendum to see off UKIP in the last election. Having made this promise, to maintain his credibility in his party, he had to keep it. He can't lose. He's going anyway. Win and he can set the date he leaves. Lose and he'll still be able to do the same. But bottom line is that we'll remain whatever the outcome because there is no good economic reason to leave. A leave vote will simply result in re-negotiation-whether from strength or weakness remains to be seen. That may appear to be a bit clumsy,-it's been a long day Maggie Thatchers former financial spin doctor has laid it out showing why we would be better off leaving, one day when you wake up and find an elected government made up of non native members and the adoption of shari law it will be too late. All the acts of terrorism are merely a smoke screen to divert what is actually happening in plain sight if only people would open their eyes. Enoch Powell got it spot on and was hounded from office for what he said. The Americans are waking up to it, hence the ground swell of support for Trump. Before anyone says they will never elect Trump as President, look at the likelihood of Leicester winning the Prem, then ask yourself if America can bring itself to actually vote a woman into the White House because I can't see that happening.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 20:49:11 GMT
PS, I'm or out not least because I am ENGLISH, and I would like to be able to say so without being called racist, same as Scots, Irish and Welsh can do without any repercussions. There are of course many other reasons.I'm not sure the word "other" is required in the highlighted bit. You don't need to take the country out of an otherwise united Europe to say you are English. Go on, be brave - just try it!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 20:50:44 GMT
Man City are out. It must be nice for their older fans to have that familiar friend, disappointment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 20:53:05 GMT
I have a theory which I have also floated elsewhere that the result is pre-determined ie that whatever the result of the referendum we will remain in. This is in truth a political battle. Cameron made a promise of a referendum to see off UKIP in the last election. Having made this promise, to maintain his credibility in his party, he had to keep it. He can't lose. He's going anyway. Win and he can set the date he leaves. Lose and he'll still be able to do the same. But bottom line is that we'll remain whatever the outcome because there is no good economic reason to leave. A leave vote will simply result in re-negotiation-whether from strength or weakness remains to be seen. That may appear to be a bit clumsy,-it's been a long day Maggie Thatchers former financial spin doctor has laid it out showing why we would be better off leaving, one day when you wake up and find an elected government made up of non native members and the adoption of shari law it will be too late. All the acts of terrorism are merely a smoke screen to divert what is actually happening in plain sight if only people would open their eyes. Enoch Powell got it spot on and was hounded from office for what he said. The Americans are waking up to it, hence the ground swell of support for Trump. Before anyone says they will never elect Trump as President, look at the likelihood of Leicester winning the Prem, then ask yourself if America can bring itself to actually vote a woman into the White House because I can't see that happening. You missed out the disabled.
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Post by sillymeadows on May 4, 2016 21:11:08 GMT
OUT
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Post by excitable on May 4, 2016 21:12:08 GMT
The current negotiations with the USA have been going on for 4 years and as nobody in EU really wants it it is unlikely to be agreed anytime soon let alone ratified by all parties. The reason is that USA Corporations would be able to sue EU countries at the drop of a hat if they didn't get their own way. That's why Obama wants us in. Good for USA not good for UK. Don't forget that EU sells more to us than we do to them and they won't want to lose that. Just say no Mercedes,BMW's,Renault or Citroens and see how quickly we get a trade deal. We are unable to do proper trade deals with the Commonwealth and the world as we have to do them via the EU whilst we are members EU citizens such as the 'Arab origin' Belgian nationals involved in the Paris & Brussels attacks are allowed open passage to the UK on EU passports.
NO BRAINERIrresponsible scare tactics not supported by evidence, and refuted by security experts including Sir David Omand, the former director of GCHQ. You really are as daft on politics as you are on all things HFC. "NO BRAINER"? That would seem like a prerequisite in your case. I understood that one of the strengths of this country was free speech and furthermore on this subject people were allowed to express their own opinions. Your outright abuse against someone's personal political standpoint confirms your usual irrational opinionated approach and convinces me that my views must be valid. I think that on a political thread playing the man is very unhealthy P.S. I think it strange that you think that supporting HFC enthusiastically is daft but then I'm happy to be a no brainer if the alternative is having sh!t for brains
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Post by mikeunderpenyard on May 4, 2016 21:22:16 GMT
Oh dear!
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bullinkiddy
Senior Member
Just when you thought it was all over......it is now
Posts: 1,247
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Post by bullinkiddy on May 5, 2016 0:01:06 GMT
I'm unsure of the spelling but one of the main reasons not to be part of the political union is .......................... TE TIP
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Post by Gulliver on May 5, 2016 19:41:27 GMT
In. Complete no-brainer. Yet to see one cogent or properly argued reason for leaving. Likewise! Yet to see or hear one cogent or properly argued reason for staying in.
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Post by Gulliver on May 5, 2016 20:08:47 GMT
Whatever happens, I fear the people will lose. I have very little time for the corporatist monolith that is the EU. There is a severe lack of transparency and democracy, and the way that the Greeks were treated (to bring them and others to heel) was chilling. However, I look at who will be holding the reigns if we leave, and I think it would be the worst of both worlds (or the "Worth of boast worlds" AP fans), as the likes of Gove, Johnson, Farage et al would drive their own version of TTIP. Why wouldn't they? They are all ideologically opposed to bodies such as the NHS, so when they use it for their cause, it rings very hollow indeed. They also have no time for the protections of workers and human rights.On this basis, I will most probably hold my nose and vote remain, but a plague on both their houses! Whoever they may be, at least they will have been voted in by us and not unknown, un-elected, unscrupulous, money grabbing power mongers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 20:22:48 GMT
My boss put it pretty well the other day I thought. He said that being in Europe is like being in a club that gives you certain benefits, however there is an annual fee and certain rules. If you leave the club, then thinking that you will still be allowed to enjoy the benefits whilst not having to pay the annual fee or follow the rules is probably being a bit hopeful.
I haven't got a clue whether he is talking crap or not, but he has always been a pretty sensible and fair minded bloke, and it sounds alright to me. As opposed to all the people in the press that are arguing for and against as they generally are playing for one of the sides.
The bookies have staying in as 1/3 clear favourites and leaving as a 9/4 shot, so roughly 70:30 in favour of staying in.
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Skomer
Junior Member
Posts: 442
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Post by Skomer on May 5, 2016 20:40:06 GMT
I'm fairly agnostic about the whole thing. I think that if we vote out we will be slightly poorer as uncertainty reduces investment, but we will end up with a trade deal and I think that it won't be much different from Norway or Switzerland. This means free movement of labour and the application of EU laws without the chance to vote on them. The reasons for this are:
1) Yes, the UK is important for the EU - 46% of our exports go to the EU and 55% of our imports come from the EU. So they have an interest in a trade deal. But there are 27 of them and 1 of us. 46% of our exports go to the EU, but only 7.5% of Germany's exports come to us (it's a lot smaller for some EU members). We are important to each of them, but not as important as the EU as a whole is for us.
2) All 27 countries have to agree any trade deal - anyone can veto it (just as Romania is threatening to veto the much lauded trade deal with Canada over visa restrictions) . So a number of Eastern European countries will insist on free movement of people or apply their veto. Why - because their electorates will want it.
3) They really will dislike us if we leave. They will also want to discourage others. Trade deals are best conducted when all parties are looking for a win-win - not when 27 countries want to humiliate the 1.
Also:
4) And then there is the Irish question. The UK has a land border in Northern Ireland with the EU. The re-partition with border posts and passport controls will be a problem and the impact on the NI economy would be harsh. Who knows how that might work out?
5) Scotland might (will?) go. It will be interesting if it does and then applies to join the EU. All new applicants have to join the Schengen area and the Euro at some point. So if there is free movement of people to Scotland from the rest of the EU, then the razor wire will have to top the Cheviots. Nightmare.
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Post by Southwestbull on May 5, 2016 20:51:30 GMT
Undecided,
One worry and a big one, if we vote to stay in, that will give the green light to rest of Europe to do as they wish, Cameron got naff all in the last negotiations and that was when we had influence(Europe trying to pacify us) before the vote.
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Skomer
Junior Member
Posts: 442
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Post by Skomer on May 5, 2016 20:53:07 GMT
Whatever happens, I fear the people will lose. I have very little time for the corporatist monolith that is the EU. There is a severe lack of transparency and democracy, and the way that the Greeks were treated (to bring them and others to heel) was chilling. However, I look at who will be holding the reigns if we leave, and I think it would be the worst of both worlds (or the "Worth of boast worlds" AP fans), as the likes of Gove, Johnson, Farage et al would drive their own version of TTIP. Why wouldn't they? They are all ideologically opposed to bodies such as the NHS, so when they use it for their cause, it rings very hollow indeed. They also have no time for the protections of workers and human rights.On this basis, I will most probably hold my nose and vote remain, but a plague on both their houses! Whoever they may be, at least they will have been voted in by us and not unknown, un-elected, unscrupulous, money grabbing power mongers. Hi Gulliver - who do you think actually approves EU laws? I'll tell you. It is the democratically elected European Parliament that you get to vote for (I don't know who my MEP is either, but I could find out) and the Council of Ministers which has on it the democratically elected UK ministers that you can vote for. The Commission drafts and implements the legislation (the current UK Commissioner is Lord Hill who was selected by Cameron and is responsible for financial stability, financial services and capital markets). The Commission, although selected by democratically elected governments, is not democratic - a bit like the House of Lords (that Lord Hill is also a member of) and the Queen.
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Post by jimcarrey on May 5, 2016 20:53:25 GMT
Can anyone recommend a website weighing up the Pros and Cons please (that isn't a blog written by Mr D Cameron or Mr B Johnson). Ta. Try Full Fact, an independent fact checking charity. Gives an easy to follow explanation of any EU in/out statements, and any counter arguments, plus independent analysis of both fullfact.org/europe/Thank you. Will take a look, even thought I can't but help looking at the link thinking that the website will be about milk
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