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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 11:16:58 GMT
Out.
The only way to arrest the country from being part of 'their' utopian super-state. First Europe - what next?
They care so much because it represents a large spanner in the works - they know it will be a success and that others will follow.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 11:21:53 GMT
I'd say in, although I think the government should but some faith in the working class people of this country. They might then not need to run off to India to staff the nhs. Financial investment needed in training and motivating British people. Vocational courses and apprenticeships not bleeding "Uni". Even the class thicko goes to Uni these days.
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Post by eggchaserbull on May 4, 2016 11:23:11 GMT
Can anyone recommend a website weighing up the Pros and Cons please (that isn't a blog written by Mr D Cameron or Mr B Johnson). Ta. Try Full Fact, an independent fact checking charity. Gives an easy to follow explanation of any EU in/out statements, and any counter arguments, plus independent analysis of both fullfact.org/europe/
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 11:25:31 GMT
My view has always been that it makes little difference to the UK in terms of foreign trade either way, however, I think it's important to commit fully one way or the other.
If we're going to stay in, we can't continue to pick and choose which aspects of membership we* like and ignore the rest and expect other member states to accept that. If you want to improve Europe and it's attitude to the UK, severing ties will achieve much less than becoming a major player within the organisation.
My main concern about leaving is that currently membership affords the ordinary British citizen a measure of protection against the excesses of which I have no doubt this government is capable. Watch out for the swathes of legislation attacking worker's rights, benefits and conditions following Brexit.
I'm in. Just.
*For we, read the government.
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Post by Corporal Ken on May 4, 2016 11:46:39 GMT
I'm in. A lot of vocal Brexiters round my way though.
Hoping it will be similar to the silent together majority in the Scottish referendum.
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Post by eggchaserbull on May 4, 2016 11:56:03 GMT
One for the pot Re the trade argument between the Brexins and Brexits: the EU is currently negotiating a deal with the US, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP). My personal opinion is that this deal does not look good for the UK, and it is the EU that is currently holding out for better conditions in the deal, against the wishes of the UK government. The governments of France and Germany have raised fears over parts of the TTIP proposals – agreements that would allow companies to sue countries that threaten their profits because of a change of government policy Critics of TTIP also claim that the deal would leave the NHS vulnerable to takeover by American healthcare giants and undermine the principle of a service free at the point of delivery. The “investor-state dispute settlement” (ISDS) powers, within TTIP could enable American healthcare firms to take legal action if a UK government restricted private involvement in the NHS. EU negotiators have already suspended talks over the ISDS system because of criticism and fears of it from EU countries If we leave the EU, Cameron and his cronies will immediately try and get this deal signed between the |UK and the US. He has praised the planned agreement as “good for Britain, good for jobs, good for growth and good for the British economy”. EDIT: I'm in, but you'd probably guessed that
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Post by somnambulist on May 4, 2016 12:26:56 GMT
I would echo what JD and Eggchaser have written. I'm in, though I must say I was disgusted at the way the 'stronger' EU countries bullied and humiliated Greece last year. I would take the Varoufakis position - remain in the EU and lobby for root and branch reform (not the pick and choose unilateral Cameron version). This was a great debate on C4 news between Jesse Norman and Varoufakis – informed and respectful. Pity it is very much the exception in political punditry. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ32OysM4fE
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 13:15:54 GMT
Complete no brainer. If we want to trade with the whole world and choose who we want in our country...OUT I might vote OUT if I can choose who lives here afterwards...
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Post by titleybull on May 4, 2016 14:00:12 GMT
100% in. This whole let's leave and trade with the rest of the world argument simply doesn't add up. We're already doing it as part of the EU, free trade deals they have negotiated with countries like Mexico, South Korea and South Africa. Over time more of these deals will emerge, for instance one is currently being negotiated with Canada. If we leave, we'll be back to square one on trade negotiations and any subsequent deals will take years to negotiate. A market of five hundred million people has far greater negotiating power than one of just seventy million.
As for 'governing ourselves', the result of a leave vote would be quite the opposite. We'd inevitably need a trade deal with the EU, considering half of our exports go there, which would mean paying some sort of fee to the EU and accepting some of their rules and regulations. I'd rather we had say in making the rules, than have to blindly accept them.
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Post by eggchaserbull on May 4, 2016 14:42:35 GMT
The bottom line is that successive British governments have wasted a great opportunity to improve the weather for us Brits.
When the first of the eastern european countries were admitted to the EU, we had the opportunity to go and buy all their land and property at knock down prices, and to do the same in the other eastern countries as they joined.
As the EU migrants entered the UK, we could then have relocated the whole of the UK population to these countries, thereby making the UK a country of hot, dry summers, and great ski resort winters.
Simples.
I'm sure that that is what de Gaulle thought was our plan all along, and why he tried to keep us out. Ken Livingstone would say that Hitler was initially in favour of it.
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Post by excitable on May 4, 2016 15:15:56 GMT
100% in. This whole let's leave and trade with the rest of the world argument simply doesn't add up. We're already doing it as part of the EU, free trade deals they have negotiated with countries like Mexico, South Korea and South Africa. Over time more of these deals will emerge, for instance one is currently being negotiated with Canada. If we leave, we'll be back to square one on trade negotiations and any subsequent deals will take years to negotiate. A market of five hundred million people has far greater negotiating power than one of just seventy million. As for 'governing ourselves', the result of a leave vote would be quite the opposite. We'd inevitably need a trade deal with the EU, considering half of our exports go there, which would mean paying some sort of fee to the EU and accepting some of their rules and regulations. I'd rather we had say in making the rules, than have to blindly accept them. The current negotiations with the USA have been going on for 4 years and as nobody in EU really wants it it is unlikely to be agreed anytime soon let alone ratified by all parties. The reason is that USA Corporations would be able to sue EU countries at the drop of a hat if they didn't get their own way. That's why Obama wants us in. Good for USA not good for UK. Don't forget that EU sells more to us than we do to them and they won't want to lose that. Just say no Mercedes,BMW's,Renault or Citroens and see how quickly we get a trade deal. We are unable to do proper trade deals with the Commonwealth and the world as we have to do them via the EU whilst we are members EU citizens such as the 'Arab origin' Belgian nationals involved in the Paris & Brussels attacks are allowed open passage to the UK on EU passports. NO BRAINER
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Post by titleybull on May 4, 2016 15:45:37 GMT
100% in. This whole let's leave and trade with the rest of the world argument simply doesn't add up. We're already doing it as part of the EU, free trade deals they have negotiated with countries like Mexico, South Korea and South Africa. Over time more of these deals will emerge, for instance one is currently being negotiated with Canada. If we leave, we'll be back to square one on trade negotiations and any subsequent deals will take years to negotiate. A market of five hundred million people has far greater negotiating power than one of just seventy million. As for 'governing ourselves', the result of a leave vote would be quite the opposite. We'd inevitably need a trade deal with the EU, considering half of our exports go there, which would mean paying some sort of fee to the EU and accepting some of their rules and regulations. I'd rather we had say in making the rules, than have to blindly accept them. The current negotiations with the USA have been going on for 4 years and as nobody in EU really wants it it is unlikely to be agreed anytime soon let alone ratified by all parties. The reason is that USA Corporations would be able to sue EU countries at the drop of a hat if they didn't get their own way. That's why Obama wants us in. Good for USA not good for UK. Don't forget that EU sells more to us than we do to them and they won't want to lose that. Just say no Mercedes,BMW's,Renault or Citroens and see how quickly we get a trade deal. We are unable to do proper trade deals with the Commonwealth and the world as we have to do them via the EU whilst we are members EU citizens such as the 'Arab origin' Belgian nationals involved in the Paris & Brussels attacks are allowed open passage to the UK on EU passports. NO BRAINER Individual countries in the EU export roughly 5 % to us, we export 50% to them as a whole, we have an awful lot more to lose than they do. It's all well and good to talk about the Commonwealth as the solution, but everyone seems to be forgetting that we chose to join the EU partially because trade with the Commonwealth was in decline. As for 'open passage', it is far harder for the types of people you mention to get into the UK than to say, France or Germany, as we are not part of the Schengen zone, and carry out border checks on people coming into the country. If your're also worried about migrants coming in from Europe, you really shouldn't be. On average they contribute around ten thousand pounds to the exchequer, which helps pay for our hospitals etc.
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Post by Fownhope Bull on May 4, 2016 15:55:04 GMT
I'm sure it will surprise few to know that I'm IN.
Almost every LEAVE argument seems to be of the 'we need to pull up the drawbridge, we're still a GREAT NATION that everyone will be falling over themselves to trade with, bloody foreigners ruining everything' variety.
With regards to immigration (as just one example). If we want to continue to trade with Europe, we will have to accept a number of regulations, including 'relative' free movement of people - don't think we could just stop anyone from abroad from working here.
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Post by eggchaserbull on May 4, 2016 16:09:35 GMT
100% in. This whole let's leave and trade with the rest of the world argument simply doesn't add up. We're already doing it as part of the EU, free trade deals they have negotiated with countries like Mexico, South Korea and South Africa. Over time more of these deals will emerge, for instance one is currently being negotiated with Canada. If we leave, we'll be back to square one on trade negotiations and any subsequent deals will take years to negotiate. A market of five hundred million people has far greater negotiating power than one of just seventy million. As for 'governing ourselves', the result of a leave vote would be quite the opposite. We'd inevitably need a trade deal with the EU, considering half of our exports go there, which would mean paying some sort of fee to the EU and accepting some of their rules and regulations. I'd rather we had say in making the rules, than have to blindly accept them. The current negotiations with the USA have been going on for 4 years and as nobody in EU really wants it it is unlikely to be agreed anytime soon let alone ratified by all parties. The reason is that USA Corporations would be able to sue EU countries at the drop of a hat if they didn't get their own way. That's why Obama wants us in. Good for USA not good for UK. Don't forget that EU sells more to us than we do to them and they won't want to lose that. Just say no Mercedes,BMW's,Renault or Citroens and see how quickly we get a trade deal. We are unable to do proper trade deals with the Commonwealth and the world as we have to do them via the EU whilst we are members EU citizens such as the 'Arab origin' Belgian nationals involved in the Paris & Brussels attacks are allowed open passage to the UK on EU passports. NO BRAINER It's not that simple. As the UK is a net importer of goods, you could probably pick any group of 27 first and second world countries in the world and find that we sell more to them than they do to us. However, figures for 2014 show that, except for Ireland (15%) and Cyprus (10%), no EU country exported double figure percentages to the UK. We exported 45% of our goods to the EU. The mean was about 7%. Not a negligible amount of a single country's exports to lose, but not as critical as our 45%. The percentages for EU export of services to the UK, as opposed to goods, were about the same. This is a market in which we are net exporters, which would be difficult, and time consuming, to renegotiate trade treaties for.
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Post by somnambulist on May 4, 2016 17:41:33 GMT
100% in. This whole let's leave and trade with the rest of the world argument simply doesn't add up. We're already doing it as part of the EU, free trade deals they have negotiated with countries like Mexico, South Korea and South Africa. Over time more of these deals will emerge, for instance one is currently being negotiated with Canada. If we leave, we'll be back to square one on trade negotiations and any subsequent deals will take years to negotiate. A market of five hundred million people has far greater negotiating power than one of just seventy million. As for 'governing ourselves', the result of a leave vote would be quite the opposite. We'd inevitably need a trade deal with the EU, considering half of our exports go there, which would mean paying some sort of fee to the EU and accepting some of their rules and regulations. I'd rather we had say in making the rules, than have to blindly accept them. The current negotiations with the USA have been going on for 4 years and as nobody in EU really wants it it is unlikely to be agreed anytime soon let alone ratified by all parties. The reason is that USA Corporations would be able to sue EU countries at the drop of a hat if they didn't get their own way. That's why Obama wants us in. Good for USA not good for UK. Don't forget that EU sells more to us than we do to them and they won't want to lose that. Just say no Mercedes,BMW's,Renault or Citroens and see how quickly we get a trade deal. We are unable to do proper trade deals with the Commonwealth and the world as we have to do them via the EU whilst we are members EU citizens such as the 'Arab origin' Belgian nationals involved in the Paris & Brussels attacks are allowed open passage to the UK on EU passports.
NO BRAINERIrresponsible scare tactics not supported by evidence, and refuted by security experts including Sir David Omand, the former director of GCHQ. You really are as daft on politics as you are on all things HFC. "NO BRAINER"? That would seem like a prerequisite in your case.
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Post by bigglesbull on May 4, 2016 17:58:09 GMT
The current negotiations with the USA have been going on for 4 years and as nobody in EU really wants it it is unlikely to be agreed anytime soon let alone ratified by all parties. The reason is that USA Corporations would be able to sue EU countries at the drop of a hat if they didn't get their own way. That's why Obama wants us in. Good for USA not good for UK. Don't forget that EU sells more to us than we do to them and they won't want to lose that. Just say no Mercedes,BMW's,Renault or Citroens and see how quickly we get a trade deal. We are unable to do proper trade deals with the Commonwealth and the world as we have to do them via the EU whilst we are members EU citizens such as the 'Arab origin' Belgian nationals involved in the Paris & Brussels attacks are allowed open passage to the UK on EU passports.
NO BRAINERIrresponsible scare tactics not supported by evidence, and refuted by security experts including Sir David Omand, the former director of GCHQ. You really are as daft on politics as you are on all things HFC. "NO BRAINER"? That would seem like a prerequisite in your case. Was at first surprised you outed yourself as a remain, given your stance on openness and transparency, then I kicked into the only motivated by self intrest mode which seems to drive nearly everything you say. So no surprise after all
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Post by excitable on May 4, 2016 18:00:41 GMT
We are not allowed to refuse entry to EU citizens without previous proven problems
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Post by bigglesbull on May 4, 2016 18:02:30 GMT
PS, I'm or out not least because I am ENGLISH, and I would like to be able to say so without being called racist, same as Scots, Irish and Welsh can do without any repercussions. There are of course many other reasons.
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Post by Fownhope Bull on May 4, 2016 18:20:00 GMT
PS, I'm or out not least because I am ENGLISH, and I would like to be able to say so without being called racist, same as Scots, Irish and Welsh can do without any repercussions. There are of course many other reasons. Eh?
I'm English. If someone asks I say I'm English. It's a statement of fact - never been accused of being racist. When have you been?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 18:23:07 GMT
PS, I'm or out not least because I am ENGLISH, and I would like to be able to say so without being called racist, same as Scots, Irish and Welsh can do without any repercussions. There are of course many other reasons.I'm not sure the word "other" is required in the highlighted bit. You don't need to take the country out of an otherwise united Europe to say you are English. Go on, be brave - just try it!
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