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Post by carrotcruncher on Jul 20, 2024 11:53:22 GMT
I imagine our budget is fairly fluid.
The current one will be based on season tickets sales, sponsorship, boost the budget etc plus, I guess, a cautious estimate of match income.
Hopefully gates will be in the region of last season and the budget can increase.
Is that a fair assumption of how things probably work?
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luke
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Post by luke on Jul 20, 2024 13:14:11 GMT
I imagine our budget is fairly fluid. The current one will be based on season tickets sales, sponsorship, boost the budget etc plus, I guess, a cautious estimate of match income. Hopefully gates will be in the region of last season and the budget can increase. Is that a fair assumption of how things probably work? Yes. The manager also has guidelines of how much of the budget can be spent on contracted vs non-contracted/short-term loan players. It was 50/50 in the past but last season it became 80/20 by mid-August when Pond signed. I think the max on contracted players starts lower and increases as the season goes on as it's about managing the risk of signing a dud or someone who gets injured. Last season the budget clearly got increased based on higher than expected ticket sales and the cup prize money to let us sign Ceesay, Lyden, Tope, Philips, Kouhyar, McHale, D'Ath, etc. when we started the season with a load of unproven young players who we let go pretty quickly (remember Stanley Anaebonam and Dylan Barkers anyone?). In 2022/23 we spent about £550k on playing/management budget - but that included about £80k from the FA Cup run. So say initial budget of £470k. Our budget decreased 20% for the start of the 23/24 season so say about £375k budget to start last season. The club said the 40% wasn't true about Cowley/Williams but no smoke without fire, so if you're paying each of those a conservative £1,000/week (~23% of the budget) that only leaves £6,500/week to spend across another 14 players (and Caddis) - £400/week per player (less if you think Caddis earns more than £20k/year...). You aren't gonna get good players for this level to sign on £400/week generally. Also, take Curtis Pond as an example. He'd have probably been about #8 in the order of priority for us to re-sign this season (and that ignores new signings that we needed). We need to pay him less than the average because Babos/Skinner definitely aren't here on £400/week. But for Chasetown he's their star player, he could easily be paid 12% or more of their budget the same way we do Cowley/Willo. I think that's why all the squad players left and it is harder to bring in people who want to prove themselves and are willing to take less money than they could get elsewhere to do so. With that said, it doesn't help that our overall budget is not in the top 7.
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Post by D.M. Dorko on Jul 20, 2024 13:54:27 GMT
All signed last season, not this one, and all no longer with the club. As White Lightning says, "attention to detail".Oh the irony........ I think you're refering to CBB? This is either an ambitious attempt at some kind of Reverse Whoosh manoeuvre or a straightforward facepalm/oh dear moment. I couldn't possibly comment.
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Post by GRL on Jul 20, 2024 14:36:22 GMT
Tolley...
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Post by GRL on Jul 20, 2024 14:38:53 GMT
Yes, which clearly illustrates the futility of doing it in the first place. Still haven't seen the league table of budgets anywhere. I wouldn't swallow that nonsense if I were you! So the manager isn’t telling the truth? In order to comment on the budget relative to all of the other clubs, one needs to know what they are. Where can I find them, please?
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Post by Barney still in B-Block on Jul 20, 2024 15:34:58 GMT
So the manager isn’t telling the truth? In order to comment on the budget relative to all of the other clubs, one needs to know what they are. Where can I find them, please? But you must already know these figures wain, surely? Otherwise how can you so assertively state that the manager is being untruthful?
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Post by White Lightning on Jul 20, 2024 15:43:07 GMT
So the manager isn’t telling the truth? In order to comment on the budget relative to all of the other clubs, one needs to know what they are. Where can I find them, please? The last set of accounts included all that you need to know. We ain't flash with the cash.
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Post by psychedelictony on Jul 20, 2024 16:15:18 GMT
So the manager isn’t telling the truth? In order to comment on the budget relative to all of the other clubs, one needs to know what they are. Where can I find them, please? Someone on the Chester devachat forum had a go at this last season. Had Hereford at about 7th or 8th in budget size. Whether or not it was total guesswork, I don't know.
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luke
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Post by luke on Jul 21, 2024 2:39:20 GMT
I'd guess at something like...: £900k-£1.2m - Scunthorpe, South Shields, Brackley £700k+ - Chester, Buxton, Chorley, Kings Lynn, Radcliffe (most of these around the £700-750k mark) £600k+ - Kiddy, Darlington, Spennymoor £450k+ - Hereford, Alfreton (I reckon there is a substantial drop-off between Spennymoor and us) £400k+ - Marine, Warrington £325k+ - Scarborough, Curzon, Southport, Oxford City, Peterborough (the last two of these could be a fair bit lower, hard to really gauge) Under £325k - Farsley, Leamington, Rushall, Needham Market (no real idea as to whether these are closer to £200k or £325k)
Which puts us around 12th in order but a long way off those above us and a long way above any ideas of a budget where there should be any talk of a fight against relegation.
The only real public references are from a couple of seasons ago with spends on player/manager wages & transfers by Chester of £736k, Darlington £605k, Hereford £550k & Scarborough £363k (and Scunthorpe with 4x the league average, with the season before that being at about £2m). We are significantly lower than £550k now though.
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Post by White Lightning on Jul 21, 2024 6:03:11 GMT
I would give anything to be able to write a post like that at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, let alone 3 o'clock in the morning.
Curzon Ashton do very well. Oxford City did very well two years ago to get promoted (albeit from the south).
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Post by White Lightning on Jul 21, 2024 6:31:21 GMT
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Jul 21, 2024 8:09:52 GMT
Top 10 finish I Suspect.
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Post by GRL on Jul 21, 2024 14:53:02 GMT
In order to comment on the budget relative to all of the other clubs, one needs to know what they are. Where can I find them, please? But you must already know these figures wain, surely? Otherwise how can you so assertively state that the manager is being untruthful? I see that somebody called Luke has provided some "guesswork" about the budget of rivals of Hereford FC. So no, there is no credible information about the respective budgets of clubs in National League North. However, if Hereford FC are not in the top 7 with the 2nd highest gates (despite mediocre league positions) it tells you, probably, that the board of directors are a waste of time.
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Post by Barney still in B-Block on Jul 21, 2024 15:22:02 GMT
But you must already know these figures wain, surely? Otherwise how can you so assertively state that the manager is being untruthful? I see that somebody called Luke has provided some "guesswork" about the budget of rivals of Hereford FC. So no, there is no credible information about the respective budgets of clubs in National League North. However, if Hereford FC are not in the top 7 with the 2nd highest gates (despite mediocre league positions) it tells you, probably, that the board of directors are a waste of time. Excellent wain, bravo. Can see why it took 24 hours to compose.
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Post by White Lightning on Jul 21, 2024 18:06:06 GMT
But you must already know these figures wain, surely? Otherwise how can you so assertively state that the manager is being untruthful? I see that somebody called Luke has provided some " guesswork" about the budget of rivals of Hereford FC. So no, there is no credible information about the respective budgets of clubs in National League North. However, if Hereford FC are not in the top 7 with the 2nd highest gates (despite mediocre league positions) it tells you, probably, that the board of directors are a waste of time. Criticising guesswork before only feeling confident enough to unleash a probably?
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Post by GRL on Jul 22, 2024 6:59:42 GMT
No. The guesswork is that being carried out in connection with budgets.
The "probably" is an allusion to something completely different. The lack of financial input from a group of people.
There is no National League "Budget" table. Or somebody would have posted it by now.
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Post by White Lightning on Jul 22, 2024 7:36:22 GMT
No. The guesswork is that being carried out in connection with budgets. The "probably" is an allusion to something completely different. The lack of financial input from a group of people. There is no National League "Budget" table. Or somebody would have posted it by now. That is only down to the level that we are at. If we were in the top flight, possibly down to League 2 this sort of information would have been published in a more formal way. Unfortunately we are below that level of significance. Fortunately Luke has put in a bit of heavy lifting and trawled through the snippets of information that are out there and had a pretty good stab at it. It isn't going to be to the penny but I think it is pretty good. One thing the Chairman and manager alluded to in the recent fans forum is that there is more money than ever sloshing around in the play clubs bank accounts so Luke may even be undercooking it. With regard to investment by the directors, isn't that written into the fabric of the club? I know people involved in the club have but proper amounts into the squad builder. Not just the price match pledges. A lot more than my fiver a month for sure.
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Post by cebull1965 on Jul 22, 2024 7:57:31 GMT
I looked at Luke’s figures and also thought in general he had clubs grouped appropriately. Variations could be Kiddy as full time I’d have thought spent more but that’s just a feeling. Darlo despite close to £175k Squadbuilder looked high given 1500 average attendances and a significant rental cost for the ground plus being unlikely to make anything from matchday hospitality. Southport from their signings and new investment have probably increased their budget. For us the board should be congratulated on finally realistically planning finances. Where to pitch the playing budget is tough. Yes a good start and keeping up the top end in touch of the single automatic promotion place and you could see 3,000 as realistic. But so is 1800 if things go poorly. Looking at last season the last 12 home fixtures averaged out at just over 2800. Another season of that and hopefully the board will have created the cash reserve from the desperate £5k remaining which the current chairman inherited.
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Post by White Lightning on Jul 22, 2024 8:01:40 GMT
I see Woking are screwed. A proper non league club we have crossed paths with at various times throughout our history.
Up for sale for a quid.
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Post by cebull1965 on Jul 22, 2024 8:11:17 GMT
Yes Woking is a lesson for us. Owner has unwisely gone through £3.5m in four seasons with one unsuccessful play off finish to see for it. The £1 purchase price is significant because the costs that ran through the investment are still there contractually and administration looks a formality within weeks. Whether the NL will require a bond at this late stage of pre season will be interesting and potentially the threat of it might deter potential owners. They averaged 2700 at the gate last season.
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